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| NBarden |
 Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:18 pm |
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Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 5468
Location: I don't know...
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Felipe Musco wrote: -Hernando Cortez lead the spaniards during the massacre (about that number, it’s around 800.000, I believe, but I’ll try to get the exact number, I have a book about it somewhere in my home);
-The spaniards massacred the natives FOLLOWING SUPERIOR ORDERS;
-Hernando Cortez was their superior;
-Killing people is bad;
-The person who orders the killing is bad;
-Hernando Cortez ordered the killing;
-Hernando Cortez is bad.
Piece of cake to kill. The sheer complexity of the argument makes it inherently killable. If I knock out one clause, the whole argument comes crashing down.
I attack this clause
Quote: -Killing people is bad;
Generally speaking, yes. However, there are instances where killing people is acceptable, even good. Here they are
The Death Penalty
War
Self-Defense
Okay, so we’ve established that killing people is not always wrong. Is what Cortez did wrong? Or was it war? Now would be an excellent time to introduce evidence into the debate instead of merely assumptions.
Quote: -The person who orders the killing is bad;
Easy point to refute. Was Moses bad? He killed an Egyptian. So, I will discuss the point further one you refute my argument here. (Of course, bad is relative, because of human’s sin nature we are all by definition bad because we are all sinners. However, this argument is being made in the spirit of the argument and not to kill on a technicality).
Felipe Musco wrote: (Btw, is THIS what you call a dillema? That was SO easy to refute... I had more dillema before in choosing whether to play Ulaire Nelya, Ringwraith in Twilight or Ulaire Cantea, Lieutenant of Dol Guldur  )
Not exactly what I meant by dilemma. In logic, a dilemma is a two pronged argument meant to attack your opponent on multiple sides. That was the dilemma I was talking about.
Quote: I’m really sorry to see how blind religious people can be, I mean, gosh, just because he’s a Christian, that doesn’t AUTOMATICALLY makes him a nice guy! Seriuosly, I wouldn’t vouche for a person just because he roots for the same soccer team (sorry for the comparison, it’s the closest I can get, as they are both the same to me, meaning, each person chooses their own, and we can’t argue about it)!
Okay, now you’re attacking us for taking a side because he was Christian. First off, not all who claim to be Christian are Christian. Second, we can’t possibly know that Cortez was Christian, although he did claim to be one.
Examples: Medieval Roman Catholicism, The Inquisition, the Age of Religious Wars, etc. Christian’s weren’t good there
Quote: So, bottom line (btw, north-americans REALLY should learn spanish to read books from other countries, a lot of them have spanish versions, and from what I’ve seen in hisroty and geography books and classes, seriously, they teach A LOT of junk and lies in the U.S.)
Couldn’t have said it better myself. That’s why homeschooling is so popular. I mean, c’mon. I doubt history books in the public schools even mention Cortez. And their science books teach evolution...another debate...not going there.
Quote: Hernando Cortez was one hell of a bloodthirsty Christian who didn’t care for ANYTHING besides hoarding gold (which he did), even if it costs lives.
Again, please introduce evidence instead of assertions.
Quote: And before NBarden tries it, no, it does NOT mean that all Christians are bad. Actually, I DO believe that most Christians (active ones, not the ones who merely consider themselves to be) ARE nice people, due to the dogmas they follow, and etc.
Try what? You never stated anything general against Christians, except that we were blind, which is quite different from accusing us of being bad.
Quote: However, bear with it, Hernando Cortez followed nothing besides his greed for the aztec gold when he arrived here. I’ll try to find english versions of the books about it, and if I can, I’ll post their titles here. If I can’t find them, well, as I said, if you want to study history and geography, seriously, learn spanish.
Evidence! Great! I’m waiting. |
 -Trade With Me
 Add the popcorn smiley to your sig, help it achieve world domination.
What if the hokey pokey really IS what its all about? 
As I lay in bed staring at the stars last night, I thought to myself, "where the heck is the ceiling?"
 Spotlight on....Sense of Obligation. |
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| Felipe Musco |
| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:04 pm |
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Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 2434
Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
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 Yay, I liked discussing with you!  Cool shot, got the exact same clause I’d attack, and for the exact same reasons! Ok, so NOW you’ve proven as a worthy opponent (  just messing with you), which means, I’ll go after the evidence you requested ASAP! And yeah, I am surprised with the amount of homeschooled people in here, but I guess it CAN de a good thing.
Well, back on track, however, mind you, as you said it yourself, what is bad differs from culture to culture, so why were the sacrifices the aztecs made bad? ’cause Cortez thought so? Hum... not good enough of an argument to me. Then, if THIS was his main argument to go to war (and it ended up being), then the war itself was wrong from the beginning, thus leading back to where I started, meaning HIS killing was wrong in the first place, EVEN IF we consider the aztec’s killing wrong by today’s standards. But yeah, I’ll go after some books in English. From the top of my head, right now, I can only remember: "A História do Descobrimento" (something like "The History of Discovery", meaning when America was first discovered). I’ll check it to see if there’s an Enl]glish version, and its name.  gp for you for the arguments raised, as I siad before, a fine, worthy opponent! 
PS: The dilema part was a joke, I can’t maintain a conversation THIS long without making at least ONE funny remark, sorry, that’s... just me.  |
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| NBarden |
| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:12 pm |
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Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 5468
Location: I don't know...
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Felipe Musco wrote: Well, back on track, however, mind you, as you said it yourself, what is bad differs from culture to culture.
Um...I never said that ’cause I don’t believe it. Maybe AC said it. Because I certainly don’t agree with it, sin is sin and sin is bad
Geez, I g2g right now I’ll refute more later.
BTW, I’m arguing for the sake of arguing  . I don’t take that strong of a position on the subject (although I don’t think he was wrong), but I love to debate. Over anyting  . |
-Trade With Me
Add the popcorn smiley to your sig, help it achieve world domination.
What if the hokey pokey really IS what its all about?
As I lay in bed staring at the stars last night, I thought to myself, "where the heck is the ceiling?"
Spotlight on....Sense of Obligation. |
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| Felipe Musco |
| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:24 pm |
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Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 2434
Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
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| THEN we’ll get this thing going for AGES, ’cause neither do I! Seriously, I couldn’t care less for the personal history of Hernando Cortez, but a debate is a debate! And as long as it doesn’t verse over religion or politics entirely, geez, count me in! |
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| NBarden |
| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:05 am |
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Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 5468
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