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| AnxiousChieftain |
 Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:37 pm |
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Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Posts: 3947
Location: Maryland
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Hey,
What are everyone’s thoughts on Cortez?
I’ve read several books about him, with conflicting views. Some portray him to be a wicked man, while some portray him as a God-loving Christian. I myself lean towards the second view.
It seems like most history books focus on telling how Cortez and the Spanish Conquistadors destroyed the Aztec culture, while leaving out the fact that the Aztecs had conquered the neighboring tribes and were sacrificing 1000s of their captives every year.
He definitely had faults, but I don’t think he was quite the demon that people think he was. By abolishing Aztec rule, he liberated the thousands of tribes that were under Aztec power, and he brought Christianity to them.
Please respond!
- AC |
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| macheteman |
| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:09 pm |
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Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 1200
Location: The Jungle
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Ok, yeah, I have fairly strong views of Cortez. while i would not call him a demon, and he did liberate some tribes under Aztec rule (and the Aztec culture was about the sickest to ever exist, at the dedication to their great pyramid in Tenochiclan they sacrificed 20,000 people.) however, cortez destroyed their entire nation for gold. "The Light and the Glory" by Peter Marshall and David Manuel said something very close to this:
"This drama, (talking about settling the new world, after Columbus had found it) which was about to begin in earnest, and would feature such stars as Cortez and Pezarro, was the bloodiest rape of a country the world has ever known, and all for the love of gold."
Cortez didn’t really bring "Christianity" to them at all, because they couldn’t speak the same language. according to the history books I’ve read, the conquistadors pretty much told them about Christianity, they couldn’t understand him, and they took their gold. Gold was pretty much all the conquistadors wanted. there were however some people who did go to the new world to evangelize, but my understanding is, Cortez was not one of them.
-macheteman |
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| Felipe Musco |
| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:15 pm |
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Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 2434
Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
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AnxiousChieftain wrote:
It seems like most history books focus on telling how Cortez and the Spanish Conquistadors destroyed the Aztec culture, while leaving out the fact that the Aztecs had conquered the neighboring tribes and were sacrificing 1000s of their captives every year.
Nothing, compared to the number of natives killed by the spanish during their years of domination and oppression.
AnxiousChieftain wrote:
He definitely had faults, but I don’t think he was quite the demon that people think he was. By abolishing Aztec rule, he liberated the thousands of tribes that were under Aztec power, and he brought Christianity to them.
That’s... nothing to be proud of. "Bringing christianity" is EXACTLY the same as a tribe dominating another, and forcing THEIR sacrificial culture upon them, with the small difference that they ADMIT the sacrifices, rather than calling it "holy war". Also, he didn’t abolish the Aztec rule to liberate no one, or to bring christianity to the "poor" natives, but to take their unsurmountable amount of gold back to Spain and become a rich man, and by forcing YOUR culture upon the dominated, you shatter THEIRS, meaning it’s harder for them to unite. It’s simple war strategy. |
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| AnxiousChieftain |
| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:51 pm |
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Joined: 15 Jul 2005
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Location: Maryland
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macheteman wrote: however, cortez destroyed their entire nation for gold.
Not just for gold. He viewed his expedition as a sort of crusade, abolishing the heathen worship that conflicted with Christianity. Many of the Conquistadors, Cortez included, sincerely wished to convert the Indians to Christianity. They believed that the Indians would burn in hell if they did not convert to Christianity; thus they brought along priests and friars to teach the Christian faith to the Indians, saving them.
I’m not saying that he didn’t want gold. He definitely wanted gold, as did most people at the time. But that was not the only thing that brought him to Mexico.
macheteman wrote: according to the history books I’ve read, the conquistadors pretty much told them about Christianity, they couldn’t understand him, and they took their gold.
Not so! A Spanish priest, Jeronimo de Aguilar knew the Tabascan language. He did not know the Aztec language, but Cortez’s companion, Don Marina, knew both the Aztec and Tabascan languages, and thus they could communicate with the Aztecs and the other natives.
Felipe Musco wrote: AnxiousChieftain wrote:
It seems like most history books focus on telling how Cortez and the Spanish Conquistadors destroyed the Aztec culture, while leaving out the fact that the Aztecs had conquered the neighboring tribes and were sacrificing 1000s of their captives every year.
Nothing, compared to the number of natives killed by the spanish during their years of domination and oppression.
Can you give me some numbers to prove this? The # of people being sacrificed was increasing every year, and that would equate to millions of Indians who would die to appease the Aztec gods.
- AC |
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| CarpeGuitarrem |
| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:39 pm |
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Joined: 07 Apr 2006
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Location: Franciscan University of Steubenville
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The only thing I could possibly see as causing massive death among the natives was the diseases they brought from the Old World. And they couldn’t possibly have forseen that.
I’m not excusing all of the conquistadors in any way, since some (like Pizarro) truly did destroy native culture for gold. But not all were like that. Cortez took on the bloodiest culture, with only a handful of men, and basically owned them.
And to those who would downplay the Aztec bloodthirstiness...when Cortez visited them, he was shown a temple decorated with the bones of humans sacrificed to Huizitchipol [sp?]. |
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| macheteman |
| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:50 pm |
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Joined: 07 Dec 2006
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Location: The Jungle
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AnxiousChieftain wrote: macheteman wrote: however, cortez destroyed their entire nation for gold.
Not just for gold. He viewed his expedition as a sort of crusade, abolishing the heathen worship that conflicted with Christianity. Many of the Conquistadors, Cortez included, sincerely wished to convert the Indians to Christianity. They believed that the Indians would burn in hell if they did not convert to Christianity; thus they brought along priests and friars to teach the Christian faith to the Indians, saving them.
I’m not saying that he didn’t want gold. He definitely wanted gold, as did most people at the time. But that was not the only thing that brought him to Mexico.
After he recieved gifts of gold from Moctezuma, Cortez imprisoned the emporor in his own house. Cortez also had a great number of Indian allies with him in Tenochtitlan, and when the Aztecs tried to kick them out after they imprisoned Moctezuma, Cortez slaughtered them, eventually burned Tenochtitlan to the ground and built Mexico City on it’s ruins. He pretty much wiped out the entire people in the name of Christianity while collecting all the gold he could get his hands on.
Any one who destroys an entire nation in the name of "Christianity" is rather missing the whole point of "Christianity". |
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| AnxiousChieftain |
| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:18 pm |
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Joined: 15 Jul 2005
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Location: Maryland
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macheteman wrote: when the Aztecs tried to kick them out after they imprisoned Moctezuma, Cortez slaughtered them, eventually burned Tenochtitlan to the ground and built Mexico City on it’s ruins. He pretty much wiped out the entire people in the name of Christianity while collecting all the gold he could get his hands on.
You’ve got it a bit wrong. The Aztecs kicked Cortez out of Tenochtitlan, inflicting major losses on the Spaniards. But the Spanish returned with Indian allies, and besieged the city, eventually taking it. Cortez offered many peace treaties to the Aztecs, but the Aztecs refused them. But Cortez did not ’slaughter’ the Aztecs. He waged a war with them, and he came out as the victor, but he was not a cruel leader. He was actually pretty nice to the Aztecs when they finally did surrender.
Here’s a quote from Columbus & Cortez, Conquerors for Christ by John Eidsome (which incidentally has a forward by Peter Marshall, the co-author of the book you referred to), referring to the Siege:
"Cortez had given his troops strict orders to avoid harming civilians and not to loot or pillage, and his own Spaniards, being a disciplined force, obeyed the orders quite well.... But try as he might, he could not restrain his native allies. The Tlaxcalans in particular were proud warriors, fewer in number but every bit as fierce as the Aztecs."
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Cortez and the Spaniards did destroy most of Tenochtitlan, it’s true; but the main reason was to destroy the Aztec temples, which were stained with the blood of so many Indians. These temples had been the center of the human sacrifices, and Cortez wished to remove all things that were related to the Aztec religion.
- AC |
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| macheteman |
| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:07 pm |
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Joined: 07 Dec 2006
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I don’t really see what good can come out of this debate. it seems like i think he was primarily driven by his desire for riches, and that his actions support that belief, you think he was more driven by the desire to bring "Christianity" to the New World, and that his actions support that belief.
Neither of us was there, so we both must go by what is written by others.
But i still believe that any one who destroys an entire nation in the name of "Christianity" is rather missing the whole point of "Christianity".
-macheteman |
Check out my best article The Utterly Corrupt Corruption,
If at first you don't succeed...Sky-diving isn't for you.
"Combat is dangerous. It tends to interupt your breathing process."
ROLF!!! |
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| NBarden |
| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:15 pm |
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Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 5468
Location: I don't know...
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AnxiousChieftain wrote: Felipe Musco wrote: AnxiousChieftain wrote:
It seems like most history books focus on telling how Cortez and the Spanish Conquistadors destroyed the Aztec culture, while leaving out the fact that the Aztecs had conquered the neighboring tribes and were sacrificing 1000s of their captives every year.
Nothing, compared to the number of natives killed by the spanish during their years of domination and oppression.
Can you give me some numbers to prove this? The # of people being sacrificed was increasing every year, and that would equate to millions of Indians who would die to appease the Aztec gods.
- AC
Okay, it could just be my debater, but I just had to point out where you guys are going wrong here. FM said
Quote: Nothing, compared to the number of natives killed by the spanish during their years of domination and oppression.
Is anyone familiar with the whole-to-part fallacy? AC, you don’t even have to respond to this argument as he’s attacking the Spanish, not Cortez. He’s saying one of two things:
All Spaniards are bad
Cortez is a Spaniard
.:. Cortez is bad
Completely loony and easy to refute.
Most Spaniards are bad
Cortez is a Spaniard
.:. Cortez is bad
Logical Fallacy.
So, here’s your dilemma FM. Either you made a completely unsupportable and crazy assumption, or you made a logical fallacy. Either way, you’re wrong. |
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| Felipe Musco |
| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:18 pm |
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Joined: 18 May 2006
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Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
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Ok, it seems that I need to guide people to think outside the box (or highschool Phylosophy classes...).
-Hernando Cortez lead the spaniards during the massacre (about that number, it’s around 800.000, I believe, but I’ll try to get the exact number, I have a book about it somewhere in my home);
-The spaniards massacred the natives FOLLOWING SUPERIOR ORDERS;
-Hernando Cortez was their superior;
-Killing people is bad;
-The person who orders the killing is bad;
-Hernando Cortez ordered the killing;
-Hernando Cortez is bad.
Is it clear now? I could draw some rough sketches...  (Btw, is THIS what you call a dillema? That was SO easy to refute... I had more dillema before in choosing whether to play Ulaire Nelya, Ringwraith in Twilight or Ulaire Cantea, Lieutenant of Dol Guldur  )
I’m really sorry to see how blind religious people can be, I mean, gosh, just because he’s a Christian, that doesn’t AUTOMATICALLY makes him a nice guy! Seriuosly, I wouldn’t vouche for a person just because he roots for the same soccer team (sorry for the comparison, it’s the closest I can get, as they are both the same to me, meaning, each person chooses their own, and we can’t argue about it)!
So, bottom line (btw, north-americans REALLY should learn spanish to read books from other countries, a lot of them have spanish versions, and from what I’ve seen in hisroty and geography books and classes, seriously, they teach A LOT of junk and lies in the U.S.), Hernando Cortez was one hell of a bloodthirsty Christian who didn’t care for ANYTHING besides hoarding gold (which he did), even if it costs lives. And before NBarden tries it, no, it does NOT mean that all Christians are bad. Actually, I DO believe that most Christians (active ones, not the ones who merely consider themselves to be) ARE nice people, due to the dogmas they follow, and etc. However, bear with it, Hernando Cortez followed nothing besides his greed for the aztec gold when he arrived here. I’ll try to find english versions of the books about it, and if I can, I’ll post their titles here. If I can’t find them, well, as I said, if you want to study history and geography, seriously, learn spanish. |
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