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| NBarden |
 Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:33 pm |
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Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 5468
Location: I don't know...
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Separation of church and state? Since when was that American? Look at our history, America was FOUNDED upon the church.
But that’s for another discussion.
I don’t think that Hillary has a chance if she runs. Obama is my number one concern, and I think he’s got a shot at winning this, and he’s the most radical, liberal candidate.
Of course, if you have Giuliani, you’ll have a candidate that’s pro-abortion and anti-gun. sure he’s tough on terror, but on the domestic issues, he’s awful. Thompson’s a good candidate, as is Brownback (although he doesn’t have much going for him on international policy). Huckabee doesn’t have a shot.
I’d like to see a Thompson/Brownback ticket to solidify the republican base. |
 -Trade With Me
 Add the popcorn smiley to your sig, help it achieve world domination.
What if the hokey pokey really IS what its all about? 
As I lay in bed staring at the stars last night, I thought to myself, "where the heck is the ceiling?"
 Spotlight on....Sense of Obligation. |
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| hawkeyespf |
| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:45 pm |
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Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 198
Location: Round Lake IL
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Riiiight, America was founded upon the church...
Google Search: Constitution Church State wrote: First Amendment wrote: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof... The point of such an amendment is twofold. First, it ensures that religious beliefs - private or organized - are removed from attempted government control. This is the reason why the government cannot tell either you or your church what to believe or to teach. Second, it ensures that the government does not get involved with enforcing, mandating, or promoting particular religious doctrines. This is what happens when the government "establishes" a church - and because doing so created so many problems in Europe, the authors of the Constitution wanted to try and prevent the same from happening here.
Can anyone deny that the First Amendment guarantees the principle of religious liberty, even though those words do not appear there? Similarly, the First Amendment guarantees the principle of the separation of church and state - by implication, because separating church and state is what allows religious liberty to exist.
Now, based on that little bit of the article, I would agree with the statement that America was founded to give its citizens a haven where they would not be persecuted for their beliefs. |
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| Turin06 |
| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:52 pm |
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Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 197
Location: Good Question
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| I heard that there was a Republican candidate who said that if he was President and there was another attack on American soil he would bomb Mecca. Is this true? and if so does this lunatic have a chance of actually being President? |
Between the conception
And the creation
Between the emotion
And the response
Falls the Shadow |
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| sickofpalantirs |
| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:41 pm |
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 7750
Location: somwhere, over the rainbow way up high. There's a land that I heard of once in a lullaby.
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I think after attending the straw poll today if a Republican wins they can do a lot of good things. And Turin to my knowledge no candidate had said that. If a republican had said it the media would have been all over it. If a dem had said it it MIGHT have been missed but I doubt it
I think Romney would be an OK Prez. I like Brownback, Huckabee and Paul the most. |
Sop's haves/ top wants
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"DáinIronfoot"
Spammers really are amazing creatures. You can learn all there is to know about their ways in a month. And yet, after a hundred years, they can still surprise you.  |
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| CarpeGuitarrem |
| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:31 pm |
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Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Posts: 3361
Location: Franciscan University of Steubenville
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hawkeyespf wrote: Riiiight, America was founded upon the church...
Google Search: Constitution Church State wrote: First Amendment wrote: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof... The point of such an amendment is twofold. First, it ensures that religious beliefs - private or organized - are removed from attempted government control. This is the reason why the government cannot tell either you or your church what to believe or to teach. Second, it ensures that the government does not get involved with enforcing, mandating, or promoting particular religious doctrines. This is what happens when the government "establishes" a church - and because doing so created so many problems in Europe, the authors of the Constitution wanted to try and prevent the same from happening here.
Can anyone deny that the First Amendment guarantees the principle of religious liberty, even though those words do not appear there? Similarly, the First Amendment guarantees the principle of the separation of church and state - by implication, because separating church and state is what allows religious liberty to exist.
Now, based on that little bit of the article, I would agree with the statement that America was founded to give its citizens a haven where they would not be persecuted for their beliefs.
Read Jefferson’s letters on the subject. He makes it absolutely clear that the First Amendment was to protect the Church from the State, not to protect the State from the Church. Now, if the State controlled the Church, I’d agree with you. That’s why it says that "Congress shall make no law respecting..." It’s sad that it’s actually turned on its head and used to prohibit stuff like Nativity scenes, when really the law has no say in that sort of stuff.
Again, another debate.
I still think Guliani-Brownback is the most winnable combination, based on ticket balance. And Guliani would completely whup up on Hilary, since he’s the king of NY. |
| "ok, change of plans. the Cobracards christmas party is coming to my house, and we’re gunna teach FM how to hunt." (mm) |
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| hawkeyespf |
| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:12 pm |
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Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 198
Location: Round Lake IL
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I just think that it’s vitally important that the government not make any statements that could be construed as endorsing Christianity or any other religion (as if W would endorse anything BUT). That includes not only explicitly advocating very Christian views, but also attempting to quietly insert those views into the public’s lives.
If they would concentrate on HELPING people and helping them to HELP THEMSELVES (aka stop mooching off the system), then this country would finally be headed in the right direction. Increasing taxes on those who can barely afford to eat as it stands is just plain wrong. Giving tax breaks to Big Oil even as they continue to report record profits is just plain wrong. Making the lives of teachers and educational administrators everywhere more difficult by demanding better results with fewer resources is just plain wrong. Invading the privacy of American citizens (wiretaps) in the name of domestic security is just plain wrong. Celebrity Justice is just plain wrong. Allowing illegal immigrants to steal jobs from citizens because they are willing to work for less pay (under minimum wage & off the record books) is just plain wrong. |
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| NBarden |
| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:15 pm |
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Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 5468
Location: I don't know...
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hawkeyespf wrote: Riiiight, America was founded upon the church...
Completely. Look at these quotes.
1606, First Charter of Virginia
“We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such people, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God…”
1620, The Mayflower Compact
"Having undertaken for the Glory of God and the Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia;..."
1639, Fundamental Orders of Connecticut
“Where a people are gathered together the word of God requires that to maintain the peace and union of such a people, there should be an orderly and decent Government established according to God…”
William Bradford- Governor of Plymouth Plantation. (Don’t have the date)- regarding the pilgrims.
“…they cherished a great hope and inward zeal of laying good foundations, or at least of making some way towards it, for the propagation and advance of the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in the remote parts of the world, even though they should be but stepping stones to others in the performance of so great a work.”
1682, Pennsylvania Frame for Government
(Preamble by William Penn)
“When the great and wise God made the world, of all his creatures, it pleased him to chuse man his Deputy to rule it: and to fit him for so great a charge and trust, he did not only qualify him with skill and power, but with integrity to use them justly.”
Quoting Scripture: “‘Let every soul be subject to the higher powers; for there is no power but of God. The powers that be are ordained by God: whosoever therefore resisteth the power resisteth the ordinance of God. For rulers are not a terror to good woorks, but to evil, wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good, and though shalt have praise of the same. He is the minister of God to thee for good’ …That settles the divine right of government beyond exception.”
“So that government seems to me a part of religion itself, a filling sacred institution and end.”
1649, Maryland Toleration Act
“That whosoever person of persons within this Province and the Islands thereunto belonging shall from henceforth blaspheme God, that is Curse him, or deny our Saviour Jesus Christ to bee the sonne of God, or shall deny the holy Trinity the father sonne and holy Ghost, or the Godhead of any of the said Three persons of the Trinity or the Unity of the Godhead, or shall use or utter any reproachfull speeches, words or language concerning the said Holy Trinity, or any of the said three persons thereof shall be punished with death and confiscation or forfeiture of all his or her land and goods to the Lord Proprietary and his heires.”
“Every person and persons withing this Province that shall at any time hereafter prophane the Sabbath or Lord’s day called Sunday by frequent swearing, drunkeness or by any uncivill or disorderly recreation or by working on that day when absolute necessity doth not require it for every such first offence forfeit 2s 6d sterling…”
1763, The Rights of British Colonists Asserted and Proved- James Otis
“Is not the government founded on grace? No. Nor on force? No. Nor on compact? No. Nor property? Not altogether either. Has it any solid foundation, any chief cornerstone but what accident, chance, or confusion may lay at one moment and destroy the next? I think it has and everlasting foundation in the unchangeable will of God, the author of nature, whose laws never vary.”
Before I wrap up, I just have to go to the Declaration of Independence, the cornerstone of America.
1776, Declaration of Independence
“that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
“And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.”
I can bring up even more quotes if you need.
I think this proves we were founded on Christianity, but if its not sufficient, I can bring up more quotes. |
-Trade With Me
Add the popcorn smiley to your sig, help it achieve world domination.
What if the hokey pokey really IS what its all about?
As I lay in bed staring at the stars last night, I thought to myself, "where the heck is the ceiling?"
Spotlight on....Sense of Obligation. |
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| CarpeGuitarrem |
| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:18 pm |
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Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Posts: 3361
Location: Franciscan University of Steubenville
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Anyway, back to the topic...(we could split those posts off, ya know...)
So Romney won the straw poll, not that I’m surprised. Thoughts? |
| "ok, change of plans. the Cobracards christmas party is coming to my house, and we’re gunna teach FM how to hunt." (mm) |
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| NBarden |
| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:23 pm |
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Joined: 28 Dec 2006
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| hawkeyespf |
| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:30 pm |
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Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 198
Location: Round Lake IL
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I’ll go ahead and simply ignore everything you posted regarding the English Colonies that existed here before we broke free and gained our independence (from those who would seek to persecute "the faithless" as it were).
Regarding the whole "endowed by their Creator..." bit, you have just proven that Christians are in fact a very egotistical and arrogant bunch when they want to be. Why would the Creator necessarily HAVE to be your one and only God? Why, in this newly tolerant nation they just created, couldn’t the Creator be Allah, Buddha, or any of the other religious deities? Same argument for "Divine Providence".
I was raised Catholic, and I do believe and not believe in certain things, but I certainly don’t need to be pushing those beliefs on anyone - each and every individual on this planet has the right to find out for themselves what they choose to believe or not believe, and it is just plain wrong for anybody to assume they have the right to try and force others to believe as they do. Period.
Point is: CHILL OUT, believe what you want, and don’t you dare try to change anybody’s mind who isn’t going to listen (it just pisses off the rest of us). That also means you should try not to have political discussions in a forum where obviously not everybody thinks the same as you (thank the maker). Just be a good person and have faith that everybody else will come around to being good people in time. |
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