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| bobtheorc |
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:52 am |
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Joined: 19 Mar 2006
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Location: Wow, its hot in Iowa
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Here is a wiki of Gravels opinions
I will be making along post about this topic later.
I noticed that he supports Fair Tax That is something that sets him apart from a normal democrat.
Sadly he is only at 1% in Democrat polls.
It really torques me that the good candidates with actual ideas are simply blown over by the media as "message" candidates, and not even considered that they should be taken seriously as America has some serious problems.
The thing I really, really don’t like about Clinton, (and other lukewarm candidates) is that her opinion on a lot of subjects is pretty bland and panders to whoever she is trying to impress.
Take for example the Irar War.
She says that she voted for it, but actually was mislead and would /could/should have voted against it. According to her it is not her fault that she simply voted yes to letting Bush do what he wants.
And right now her plan to "fix" the Iraq war seems to be just leave it alone, maybe bring some troops home, but nothing radical or very helpful.
Just simplistic ideas not new or better ones.
At least guys like Kucinich, Gravel, and Ron Paul know what they want, they want to bring all the troops home ASAP.
Now you may disagree with them but at least they have a strong conviction of what they want.
Or people who want to have a strong troop surge which could work very well if it was strongly backed and not done half-way.
Just an example |
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| NBarden |
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:13 pm |
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Quote: Taxation
Senator Gravel supports the FairTax proposal that calls for eliminating the IRS and the income tax and replacing it with a progressive national sales tax of between 19 and 23 percent on newly manufactured items and services. As compensate for necessities, such as food, there would be a “prebate” to untax households up to the poverty level. He calculates that an average family of three that lives below the poverty level would receive an additional $3,000 a year. 
Impressive. I somewhat agree with him there. Although I’m not sure of a progressive sales tax, I’m personally in favor of a flat sales tax, and his rates, he’s pretty good on this issue. I take it this is what differentiates him from other Democrats.
Quote: National healthcare
In his campaign pronouncements Senator Gravel has identified medicine and medical technology costs as ’one of the leading causes of bankruptcies’.  He is an advocate for ’a national, universal single-payer not-for-profit U.S. healthcare system’. 
Strike 1. This is socialism. Sorry, but national healthcare means bad healthcare. COMPETITION IS GOOD! It keeps hospitals at their best. National healthcare means...
1. Higher prices
2. Lower quality of care
3. Greater entrenched reliance on the government. The government is not always there to help you.
4. Higher taxes
Quote: Social security
Senator Gravel has recorded his call for Congress to ’stop raiding the Social Security Trust Fund’.  He proposes identifying the interests of individual beneficiaries so they can leave their surplus funds to their heirs.
Interesting. Although I don’t agree with him, this isn’t a really big issue IMO. Everyone is going to take a position that stealing from social security is bad, but I doubt anyone intends to fix the problem if they become president.
Quote: Veterans affairs
Senator Gravel proposes to index veteran health care entitlements to take full account of increases in the costs of care and medicine. He has said that he would make permanent the 100 percent disability ratings of those diagnosed as suffering from Post-traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD).
He has pledged that he would fully fund and resource the Veterans Administration. 
Not sure on my position with the whole Veterans thing. So no comment right here.
Quote: Energy, environment and climate change
Senator Gravel has advocated that carbon energy should be taxed to provide the funding for a global effort to bring together the world’s scientific and engineering communities to develop energy alternatives to significantly reduce the world’s energy dependence on carbon. 
Strike 2. Higher taxes to accomplish nothing? And then we’re going to increase already rising gas prices?
Global effort? Who is paying for this “global effort”. Who pays for the UN? The US. Who reaps the benefits? Actually, no one. But its not the US. Who pays for NATO? The US. Who reaps the benefit? The Balkans, former USSR states like Yugoslavia, Ukraine, etc. Who is paying for this “global effort”? The US. And who reaps the benefits? I bet its not the US…
Quote: International relations
The Senator’s October 2006 speech to the New Hampshire Institute of Politics entitled Stepping Back From Imperialism: Redirecting American Foreign Policy, revealed his analysis of pressing domestic and foreign policy issues and the policies he would address if elected President.  Prominent within that was his categorical expression of the desire to effect the immediate termination of United States military involvement in Iraq and the withdrawal of all remaining US military personnel from that country.
His remarks could otherwise be encapsulated as follows:
’The reality is, the United States is No. 1 only in weaponry, consumer spending, government and personal debt, in the number of people we have in prison and .. in delusion.’
I kinda agree.
’The preeminent threat in the affairs of nations is nuclear proliferation. Sanctions (against nuclear states) do not work .. [and are] in most cases, .. immoral.’
I agree. Nothing short of a full-scale invasion works.
’Take our troops out of Iraq immediately, and move aggressively toward a diplomatic solution bringing the United Nations, the European and Asian communities, and regional players ... into a process to help end the civil war in Iraq and establish stability in the region.’
Um….no. No way. Our troops have fought and died to protect then Iraqis, their blood must not be in vain. Withdrawing from Iraq would also mean we lose, and nobody can take us seriously. Also, if we withdraw, it makes our job that much harder next time around, because our enemies no that if they last long enough, we will lose heart and terrorism will win. No. Now that we are in Iraq, we must stick it out to the end. And it’s a good thing we went into Iraq as well. I do not doubt that Iraq had WMDs. They probably sent them to Syria or someplace like that.
’The US (with allies, regional powers and the UN) ... must sponsor direct negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, including Hamas .. with the goal of a two-state solution .. which would involve guarantee[ing] the demilitarized borders of both parties, guarantee[ing] Israel’s right to survive ... and making a commitment to the Palestinians to raise their economic standards to that of Israel.’
The only negotiations we should be doing with Palestine are on the tip of a Tomahawk Cruise Missile. Seriously, I think we should order Palestine to surrender Gaza back to Israel, as well as all the contested areas, and let Israel do what they need, telling them that we back them 100%
His specific foreign policy related proposals and initiatives are:
* The US sponsoring direct negotiations between Israel and all Palestinian factions, including Hamas
No negotiations with Palestine. Ultimatums, yes, but no negotiations.
* Support for a Palestinian state to exist alongside Israel
No way. The Palestinians are there illegally anyway.
* The US acting as a guarantor for the demilitarisation of Israel’s border with a future Palestinian state
HAHAHAHAHA! HAHAHAHA! Demilitarize the Israeli/Palestinian border? This is his stupidest idea yet. Israel may comply, but Palestine will NOT. Since when did we trust terrorists who think that it is their sovereign duty to kill as many Jews as possible screaming death to the infidel and blowing themselves up to gain heaven to disarm? HAHAHAHA. No.
* The US committing to help raise the economic standards in a future Palestinian State to compare with those in Israel
No. We should hope their terrorist-run economy goes nowhere, because do you know where all that money is going? Terrorists. This guy wants us to bring prosperity to people who want to kill us?
* Disavowing a nuclear first-strike policy
I agree here. MAD is good, but preemptive strikes should not be nuclear.
* Cutting the number of nuclear devices in US hands from more than 10,000 to a couple of hundred
No. MAD is good. The US needs to have high weaponry in order to maintain security. The Russians still hate us. The Russians still have nukes. The Russians still have enough nukes to destroy the world. And we’re going to reduce our number of nukes in face of such a threat? Sure we’re at peace with Russia, for now, but who knows when there’s gonna be another Cold War. Russia is testing nukes, we need to be doing the same.
* That the US should immediately sign the Kyoto Protocol
Basically, stop Global Warming. You know what, the human race contributes to such a miniscule change in Global Warming that if we stopped every single “greenhouse gas” emission, it wouldn’t make a difference. This is the way the world is, this is the way it always has been and will be. You know what? In a hundred years ago, people will be complaining that the world is cooling down to rapidly. At least, that was what they were saying in the 70s…
* Immediate US military withdrawal from Iraq and support for a UN-sponsored regional peace process to arrest the Iraqi Civil War
Already commented on.
He is highly critical of the President and Bush Administration’s public characterisation of nations such as Iran, Syria, North Korea, Cuba, and Libya as members of an ’axis of evil’. 
Strike 3. You’re out. Iran- Nuclear. Took a vow to attempt to destroy the US. Syria- Possibly Nuclear. Allied with Saddam Hussein’s Iraq. Cuba- Most notorious violation of human rights ever seen. Libya- I take that back. This is probably the most notorious violation of human rights. Not to mention nuclear.
Yeah they’re evil.
Quote: Torture
Senator Gravel has called upon Congress to pass legislation to outlaw the practise of torture against detainees of the Government and military. His 1 March 2007 media release states:
“The Constitution is very clear that prisoners of war are the responsibility of the Congress. The Bush administration has unlawfully taken that power without Constitutional justification. The Congress has been derelict in its duty to see that enemy combatants are treated humanely within the guidelines of the Geneva Conventions, and has been equally neglectful in its response to the President’s unlawful use of torture.”
He has pledged that if elected President he would ’vanquish’ the Military Commissions Act of 2006, by which the writ of habeas corpus has been suspended for aliens designated "unlawful combatants" and which he also claims to found authorisation for CIA torture practices in overseas detention facilities. (Also see ghost detainees)
Its not Bush’s fault. So don’t blame him. And is torture wrong, if it saves lives?
Quote: Education
Among his proposals and/or remarks to the New Hampshire Institute of Politics were:
* ’30% of American children do not finish high school’.
* ’In education, the United States ranks 49 in literacy, and 28 out of 40 developed countries in mathematical literacy. Europe has surpassed the US as the largest producer of scientific literature.’
* ’Foreign applications to American graduate schools have declined by 28% since 2004’
* Proposing to restore funding of the National Science Foundation to pre-2004 levels
Yeah, the education system is messed up. Spending more money on the National Science Foundation isn’t going to fix anything. We need to fix the system, not give it more money. Get more of the current money into the classrooms instead of lost in administration. Give it to the teachers, not the superintendents. You can’t fix it with more money. If a system wastes money, no matter how much money you give it, that money will be wasted. Fix the system.
Quote: Gay civil rights
In his February 2007 address to the Democratic National Committee Winter Conference he referred to the prospect of marriage between gays and lesbians in the following terms:
"Since the Second World War, various political leaders have fostered fear in the American people - fear of communism, fear of terrorism, fear of immigrants, fear of people based on race and religion, fears of gays and lesbians in love who just want to get married. Fear of people who are just different. It is fear that allows our political leaders to manipulate us all and to distort our national priorities."
His media release of 26 February 2007 (see under Media Releases) explicitly stated his support on the full range of gay civil rights issues including same-sex marriage recognition, opposition to Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, extension of the scope and effect of hate crime legislation to cover hate violence against gays and lesbians, and the removal of all other remaining legal discrimination against LGBT.
Marriage is between one man and one woman. Period. That being said, do what you want, but don’t expect us to support it.
Quote: Decriminalisation of marijuana
Senator Gravel advocates for the decriminalisation of the use and possession of marijuana.[citation needed]
WHAT THE…?!?!?! No. Need I say more?
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt with the [citation needed] and assume that this position of his may not be true. I sure hope not.
Quote: Stem cell research
Senator Gravel in principle does not object to the use of embryonic stem cells for medical research purposes.[10]
Embryonic stem cell research involves the taking of a human life. As such, it is inhumane, murder, and, may I say, criminal. Or should be, if the laws were enforced. But the Supreme Court decided not to enforce the laws against murder in Roe v. Wade.
Quote: Campaign Finance
At the February 2007 Democratic Presidential Candidates Forum he has said that he is in favour of some degree of public financial assistance to the campaigns of Presidential candidates.
You are going to make the American people pay for your campaign, against their will, whether they support you or not? No. Part of the campaign process is raising funds. That’s just how it works. If you can’t manage your money properly, we don’t want you managing the government’s money, thank you very much.
Quote: Immigration
In remarks at the Carson City, Nevada, Democratic Presidential Candidates Forum of February 2007, Senator Gravel has said that he disfavors wholesale or widespread deportation of illegal immigrants found residing in the United States.
In other words, he said absolutely nothing. NOBODY favors mass deportation. That’s not even a valid position. Now tell us what you believe on Illegal Immigration.
Quote: The National Initiative
Senator Gravel proposes an Amendment to the US Constitution and an accompanying Federal Law to bring about a means of citizen-initiated national lawmaking in addition to the existing means of lawmaking through the institutions of representative government (ie. Congress and the President).[11]
The ’Democracy Amendment’ would: 1) amend the Constitution asserting the legislative powers of the people, 2) outlaw the use of monies not from natural persons in initiative elections, 3) create an Electoral Trust and defines the role of its trustees, 4) legitimise national elections to vote on the enactment of federal laws arising from citizen-initiated legislative proposals (’national initiatives’).
The ’Democracy Act’ as a federal law would: 1) set out deliberative legislative procedures to be used for initiative lawmaking by citizens, 2) define the powers of the Electoral Trust that administers the legislative procedures on behalf of citizenry, 3) define the electoral threshold that must be reached for ’national initiatives’ to become law.
The authority for effecting such a constitutional reform, is proposed to derive from Article VII of the US Constitution.
Direct democracy- The people make the rules.
Representative democracy- The people pick people to make the rules.
These are not the same. We are a Representative Democracy. Look at history. Every single attempt at Direct democracy resulted in one of two things: a dictatorship or anarchy and then a dictatorship. Sorry, no.
Quote: Stance on impeachment
The Senator approved the release of a statement on 13 February 2007[12] outlining his view that ’impeachment (of President Bush) .. is, in this case, insufficient’ and that he ’supports a congressional inquiry into whether or not (the President) has overstepped his authority and broken the law’.
OH MY GOSH!!!! QUIT WHINING!!!!! President Bush was completely okay in doing what he did. He did not overstep his authority, he did not break the law. And just try to impeach him.
In conclusion, he’s got some good ideas on fiscal policy, and kudos for him. But he flunks all the other, more important areas. Sorry, he does not get my vote. But he’s better than Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton. I agree with BtO, he seems like he’s got convictions and he doesn’t hesitate to make them clear. But his convictions are wrong. |
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| bobtheorc |
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:13 pm |
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| sickofpalantirs |
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 10:54 am |
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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Location: somwhere, over the rainbow way up high. There's a land that I heard of once in a lullaby.
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torture is ALWAYs wrong. it degrades the torturer, and the tortured if we resort to that we are no better then our enemies...
but yeah demilitarlizing the palestine/israeli border would be akin to if canada was sendin gin dozens of suicde bombers to kill innocent american’s (women children) and we decided we were just going to let them waltz in...
negotiating with Hamas is stupid. hamas is a terrorist organization...Nb might be a bit rash but still....
wiht the iraq war...I think it is going to be impossible to win a war against those who don’t follow the rules of war...of course sometimes we haven’t... |
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| physcosick |
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:49 am |
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| NBarden.... I’ve disagreed with so many things you have recently posted... so so many things I read and said to myself "wow..." but your lucky I’m lazy and that that post was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long. |
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| NBarden |
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:19 pm |
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| sickofpalantirs |
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 2:26 pm |
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Location: somwhere, over the rainbow way up high. There's a land that I heard of once in a lullaby.
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physcosick wrote: NBarden.... I’ve disagreed with so many things you have recently posted... so so many things I read and said to myself "wow..." but your lucky I’m lazy and that that post was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long.
what about what i posted? and i would like to see that to so I could argue on the things I don’t agree on. |
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| physcosick |
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:36 pm |
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I was readin through your last posts and then I saw this.... and I decided that I was going to stop reading right there. That pretty much draws the line. You sir are brainwashed. The term pro-death was created by simplistic pro-life ********* who think "pro-life is a good name to get people to side with us... our opponents... those against us are obviously opposite from us... opposite of life is death".
There was a pro-life guy who came to my High School one year and referred to us as pro-death. There was not ONE supporter of him in our high school and we were all debating with him and yelling at him. He was an idiot and we all knew it. He then complained to our principle and refuses to ever go back to our high school again. We were free thinkers with common sense who could smell bull**** when it was being thrown at us.
The term pro-death implies that I am for the death of children. As in, I go around, just for the hell of it, and kick pregnant women in the stomach as hard as I can. No! Instead, I give other people the responsibilty of dealing with the issues in their life. It is their life, not mine. Regardless of what they do, it isn’t my bussiness. I have no right to say that women can not have an abortion... partly because I am a male and partly because it isn’t my life.
I actually had a little bit of a worry about a month ago and was talking about this with my gf cause she was thinking of the possibilty of her being pregnant and she has always been against abortions since i knew her... but not for the same reasons as you. And I was disgusted to hear her say that if she was she would go to a clinic because of school, her parents, her financial situation, and the situation of our relationship.
So am i pro-death because I allow other people to live their life? No! It’s called letting other people take control of their own life and being responsible for their actions. Am I pro-death even tho I was the only one who strongly opposed the abortion of what is now my 4-year-old niece? Am i pro death because I have opposed the death of what could have been a child of mine despite the reprecussions of the act that could have gotten us both in extreme trouble not to mention the financial strain due to my current situations in life? Again... no...
Congratulations, nbarden... now that I have made my return I’m already getting really annoyed by some people here... mainly u... so as of right now, I, Physcosick am introducing my ban list.
My ban list will include those who I see as truelly horrible people who, for whatever reason, shouldn’t be able to have a voice. However, I can’t not shut them up personally because I’m would never restrict someone from doing something that they want to do. Therefore, I, physcosick, ignore ALL POSTS from people on my ban list. So if your on the list, I will never read your posts, let alone reply to you so don’t ever expect to hear from me on whatever you say. |
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| Anonymous Prodigy |
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:45 pm |
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physcosick wrote: My ban list will include those who I see as truelly horrible people who, for whatever reason, shouldn’t be able to have a voice. However, I can’t not shut them up personally because I’m would never restrict someone from doing something that they want to do. Therefore, I, physcosick, ignore ALL POSTS from people on my ban list. So if your on the list, I will never read your posts, let alone reply to you so don’t ever expect to hear from me on whatever you say.
Paraphrase: I, psychosick, have encountered certain people on this site, namely NBarden and Merrick_Hale, who kicked my socks off in debates. Therefore, I will avoid future embarrassment by ignoring their posts.
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| physcosick |
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:51 pm |
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Why are you talking about M_H? I honestly don’t even remember him. And thats not a matter of losing in a debate because there really wasn’t a debate to begin with... one was about to start, but I ended it before it could get off the ground.
It’s not about debates, it’s about being a horrible person and extremely insultive (not directly or intentively though)... but I’m done with it...
why you would even respond to the tone of my previous post with a comment like that is beyond me...  |
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