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| NBarden |
 Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:32 pm |
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Joined: 28 Dec 2006
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| menace64 |
| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:59 pm |
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
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Location: Wichita, Kansas
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I’m not Anti-Bush (I don’t personally know him), but I *am* against what his administration is doing to the Middle East and I *am* against policing the world.
Mainly, that this administration (and others before it, regrettably) feels that they have the right to forcibly intervene in other societies and supplant sovereign governments with ’democracy’ (I find it hard to believe that we can set up a democratic society somewhere else when we don’t even have one). Forcing freedom onto others removes their freedom.
And then there’s the ’War on Terror’. Um, are we fighting nouns, now? Are we at war with a tactic (because that’s all terrorism is... a tactic). In fact, technically speaking, we aren’t in a war at all. The US can ONLY go to war if Congress approves it, and - um, yeah - Congress had nothing to do with this administration’s invasion of Iraq.
And really, my hostility towards the current administration is for more than just republicans. It’s everyone in politics. For the most part they’re all sleazebags, incapable of making a decision if it doesn’t put more money in their greasy pockets. I can’t stand the corruption. Why can’t ’mature’ adults just do the right thing for right thing’s sake?
I hate to interject this thread with an advertisement, but the only candidate for presidency that I care about is Ron Paul. I will assume that a lot of you have not heard of him, and please don’t let that prejudice your opinion against him. The reason he’s not as popular (well, actually, he won the last debate, so I guess he *is* popular), is because he isn’t what you’d call your mom-and-pop presidential candidate. He’s actually a freedom fighter.
He said his first task would be to get rid of the IRS, then - immediately - call the troops home. Not just the ones in Iraq, but all of them. He’s right when he says we’re going broke (trillions of dollars in debt and loaning billions daily from China to stay afloat) and that we need to restart the system.
www.ronpaul2008.com
And if you want to see him in action, go to youtube and just search him.
Sorry, nbarden. It’s just that all of my opinions on the ’war’ follow his, and he’s much more eloquent than I am. |
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| bobtheorc |
| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:43 pm |
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Joined: 19 Mar 2006
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Location: Wow, its hot in Iowa
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I have met Ron Paul in person..great guy, he is a libertarian-ish republican who is a strong believer in paying attention to the Constitution
I am not sure that pulling troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan is ASAP is a terrific idea, but I do agree that having troops in peaceful countries, (ie not South Korea or Iraq) is silly at best.
He would also end the "war on drugs" which is a GREAT idea.
Btw what is it with politicians and these "wars" on things...although the target of the war isn’t anything against which standard military tactics are effective.
Aside from the fact that it lets them basically have blank checks for things...
Anyway Ron Paul would get rid of our troops and our $$$s that are in South America solely for the purpose of hunting down drugs sources.
I would recommend checking him out. here is a wiki article on him Ron Paul read it... |
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| NBarden |
| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:05 pm |
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Joined: 28 Dec 2006
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Menace, I have a question. What are we supposed to do when our nation is attacked, like September 11th? Why do you think we haven’t been attacked again? Attack is the best form of defense, and by taking the battle to the terrorists, we’re keeping our nation safe.
As for the "War on Terror", that is just a term, for what may better be a "War on Terrorists." Eloquence...
What about Afghanistan? Were you opposed to that.
As for "policing the world," I am also against that. We’ve been in Iraq to long, and its not going to stabilize. You can’t come out of 1000 years of war and expect to change it all of a sudden. This is what Iraq was for. The whole idea of stabilizing the country and leaving will NOT work, leaving us to either occupy the country, or pull out. Now don’t get me wrong, it was important that we take out Saddam Hussein, but after that, we needed to pull out. Otherwise, this may turn into another Vietnam. Matter of fact, its already beginning.
And, if you can’t stand the corruption, menace, did you vote last election?
Oh, and I’m pulling for Fred Thompson. |
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| ingold55 |
| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:40 pm |
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Joined: 10 Oct 2005
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I would like to point out that the war on terror is a war of religions.
We have Islam fighting Christianity and Judaism. It is a conflict that will never be disolved until Christ returns.
I would like to also say that I am for keeping troops in Iraq. Not as large of an amount, but you have to realize this:
Al-quida is waiting for us to leave. It is a group that wants power. The people want ’freedom’. It will be a great battle and a bloody one if we withdrawl.
By being over there, we are also keeping large battles from Isreal, which is a good thing in its self. |
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| lem0nhead |
| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:01 am |
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Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 2981
Location: Blood Island
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NBarden wrote: Okay, so let’s start this debate. I’ve seen that a good number of people on the forums are anti-Bush, and I’d like to hear their reasons why.
Ok what happened to "i dont want to start this thread"?
And by "a good many people" you mean cos me and SM made a joke about him in TPBM game?
NBarden wrote: No.
TPBM supports the War on Terror.
SM, lem0n, I have bone to pick. As soon as someone starts a thread on it, I don’t want to.
Whats the point in having a bone to pick with us when theres nothing u can do about, it doesnt matter what we think, its an opinion, and there are hundreds of thousands of people worldwide also thinking the same as us as well as those like your good self. You going to have a bone to pick with them? Whats the point? If we all agreed on everything the world would be dull.
As it happens though just to clear the air "i am not anti-bush" at all, im just saying the guy is a bit of a numpty and THAT you cannot argue with NB. He makes up words, gets things wrong, stutters cos he doesnt know what to say next and also makes a fool of himself on national television by saying things like:
"Families is where our nation finds hope, where wings take dream." -George W. Bush, in Oct.. 2000
And this is probably THE MOST powerful man in the world. I have literally no idea about how he runs the USA or his politics which is why i havent commented on them, and although i have views on certain things like the kyoto treaty i will refrain from posting them as i couldnt care less for a topical arguement on a forum where i discuss LOTR cards. I just said theres an irony that he controls the worlds largest superpower and uses non-words such as "misunderestimate".
Why do you think if you type george bush gaffes or mistakes into google there are thousand of hits? |
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| Shieldmaiden |
| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:55 am |
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Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 389
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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I agree with Menace64 and Lem0nhead.
There are two reasons for the war in Iraq: oil and Bush’s desire to finish what daddy started. Don’t believe all of the bull they’ve dished out about freeing the people or weapons of mass destruction. That’s all lies.
There are many other nations in the world that are held over by ruthless dictators, many of which are much much worse than Saddam Hussein. Why isn’t the Bush administration going after them? The answer: no oil. There’s no profit to be had in those nations.
There were absolutely no weapons of mass destruction found in Iraq. None. Bush’s administration tries to say that they must have been moved or destroyed. These are just lame excuses.
It makes me extremely angry, knowing that American (and British and other nationalities) soldiers are dying, all to make some rich people richer.
The War On Terror? It’s only creating more terrorists. As bobtheorc says, "Btw what is it with politicians and these "wars" on things...although the target of the war isn’t anything against which standard military tactics are effective." That’s so very true. For every terrorist you kill, 4 more rise up to take their place. The answer to this is through diplomacy, not war.
There’s so much more: the environment (going against the Kyoto agreement), human rights (which only Americans are allowed to have, and Bush’s government gets to make their own definitions of who is American and who is not), Afghanistan (started out really well, now after spending millions and millions of dollars and American lives, it is now stagnant and going downhill fast), Medicare drug failure, Katrina (horribly handled), economy (America is deeply in debt), Iran, North Korea, Syria (foreign policy? what’s that?), military (over used and over deployed)...I could go on, but who wants me to?
I thought that there might be hard feelings about the comments that Lem0nhead and I made. There are some Americans (some, not all) who think that the president IS America, that verbally attacking the president is attacking America. That’s just not so. The president is not god. He is an employee of the American people. And as such, I think he should answer for his mistakes.
He won’t, though. No one will hold him accountable.
I don’t know why I’m even replying to this in the first place. I’m not going to change the mind of any person who is hard set. There will be a rebuttal to what I’ve said. Then I will have to reply to it, then on and on. I don’t want to get into a long and pointless debate. And I don’t want any hard feelings (although it seems like there already are). So I will bow out of this one and watch from the sidelines. My silence does not mean that I have changed my mind (ducking my head to avoid the bullets and shrapnel that are sure to follow  ). |
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| menace64 |
| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:07 am |
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
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Location: Wichita, Kansas
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NBarden wrote: Menace, I have a question. What are we supposed to do when our nation is attacked, like September 11th? Why do you think we haven’t been attacked again? Attack is the best form of defense, and by taking the battle to the terrorists, we’re keeping our nation safe.
I think, to answer the question, I have to go back in time a while before 9/11. We were bombing and killing Arabs long before that, back in the early 90s. That’s the reason we got attacked back; not because they think we’re all religious infidels (even though most Americans are! hah!). If we leave well enough alone, and allow the Middle East to kill each other for a while, they will forget that we were even involved.
Now, that may sound bad, but it’s already been said that the Middle East is full of violence; nothing can stop that save nuking it all to the ground (ie: bad idea). I think if we stay here at home and act like a civilized country, prosper, and generally kick booty at being brilliant and lovely, then eventually others will ask themselves, "now what is my country missing? What can I do to be like the USAins?"
Too optimistic? Probably. I tend to think there’s lots of good in everyone.
NBarden wrote: Now don’t get me wrong, it was important that we take out Saddam Hussein, but after that, we needed to pull out.
Was it so important? He didn’t have WoMDs. Sure, he was gassing his people, but America had been funding Saddam’s operations since the 80s. Heck, we trained the Al Queda! I believe the only reason Saddam got to where he was (in the position for us to stomp on him) was because of us putting him in power.
As long as we keep throwing our fist in peoples’ mouths, these things will happen. If there’s one thing I’ve learned about free people, it’s that free people don’t understand the minds of unfree people at all.
NBarden wrote: And, if you can’t stand the corruption, menace, did you vote last election?
I wasn’t old enough... barely. But I didn’t like either of the nominated candidates. Bush and Kerry are pretty much the same person, in my opinion... twisted and evil  .
Oh man... I just opened my own can of worms. I *hate* how we have a bipartisan government. So much! And I *hate* how the Popular Vote doesn’t mean diddly-squat. I *HATE* the electoral college... the people who actually decide who’s president. As long as the college exists, we are not a democracy.
And Shieldmaiden is right about oil and our need to get it cheaply. I mean, pretty much every country in Africa is a hell-hole. Just look at the Congo. It’s a mess. We have more reasons to be there than in Iraq. But add in the oil factor and CACHING! Money! We get to kill people and feed our habit? Sweet deal.
I firmly believe that all humans prefer being talked to as opposed to getting shot at. I am one of those people. I hate getting shot at. It blows. When you go to war (or go to police action) you only plant the seeds of the next war (or police action). Hate begets hate.
But this, being my first real foray into my politcal standings on CC, will also be my last. I don’t like my opinion being pushed on (I’m not saying any one of you is doing that - you haven’t at all) and I positively hate pushing my opinion on anyone else. I’d rather everyone who doesn’t have a standing here go out and research, read up, and find out on your own that I’m right.  |
Riddle 9
When I came to Abraham I let him live just a moment longer. When I came to Moses I saved his life more than once. But the salmon... I regret to say I had a hand in its death.
Who am I? |
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| LeoKula |
| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:08 am |
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Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 479
Location: SP, Brazil
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Holy smokes the kid really believes that george w redneck bush is defending his country !!  keep living the american dream, baby |
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| gil-estel |
| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:59 am |
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Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 545
Location: Groningen, the Netherlands
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I have nothing to add to Menace and Shieldmaiden....  Politics, everywhere, should concern internal affairs! Bush, as every other political leader is indeed an employee of the citizens. But I guess with all the dollars spend on campaigns it seems to be they’re employees of the captains of industry...  |
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