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| macheteman |
 Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:48 pm |
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Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 1200
Location: The Jungle
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ok, here is the stuff i said i’d try to get up it’s about the effects on a woman after an abortion:
elevated risk of death, including high risk of suicide (Southern Medical Journal): after abortion, women have an elevated risk of death from all causes, which persists for at least 8 years.
65% experienced multiple symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder (Medical Science Monitor).
significantly higher risk of anxiety and clinical depression (Brittish Medical Journal, Medical Science Monitor, and Journal of Anxiety Disorders)
Higher risk of substance abuse/increased substance abuse/increased smoking and drug abuse during subsequent pregnancies (American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology, British Journal of Health Psychology, American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse)
160% more likely to be hospitalized for psychiatric treatment (Canadian Medical Association Journal)
Nearly twice as likely to be treated for sleep disorders, which are often trauma-related (Sleep) |
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| AgentDrake |
| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:25 pm |
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Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 667
Location: Halfway between eccentric and insane...
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macheteman wrote: WTFlip? do you realize that you just totally bashed democrats for everything? like they are the "bad guys" or something.
abortion not frowned upon by the "Democratic community"? that’s a rather gross generalization. and it’s a GREAT thing that our country defends endangered species. it is cruel to animals if you destroy an egg of a rare bird.
and then to come back and talk about God right after that shows a large disconnect. The thing that the Bible says should separate Christians from others is their LOVE. "They will know you are Christians by your love." but does ANYONE think "love" when you say christian? no. because they know us by our hate, and they know us by what we are AGAINST. They know we are christians because we are AGAINST homosexuality, AGAINST abortion, AGAINST premarital sex. do i think those things are wrong? yes. but is a homo any more of a sinner than I am? of course not!
and there are tons of Christians who yell and scream about homosexuality, and never think about the fact that gluttony is just as wrong. or look at it this way: is God’s saving grace any less able to save someone who has had an abortion? God forbid!
You said: "only the most horrible of women would sacrifice the life of her own child." the thing is, you’ve gotta own up to the fact that you and me are just as evil.
this should really be split into a new thread.
 Well said, actually. Too many people, including Christians, completely forget that.
And yeah, I also think this should be split into a new thread. |
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| macheteman |
| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:46 pm |
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Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 1200
Location: The Jungle
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| Thank you, i appreciate it. and can the next mod that reads this please split the thread? |
Check out my best article The Utterly Corrupt Corruption,
If at first you don't succeed...Sky-diving isn't for you.
"Combat is dangerous. It tends to interupt your breathing process."
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| Shieldmaiden |
| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:47 am |
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Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 389
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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macheteman wrote:
and then to come back and talk about God right after that shows a large disconnect. The thing that the Bible says should separate Christians from others is their LOVE. "They will know you are Christians by your love." but does ANYONE think "love" when you say christian? no. because they know us by our hate, and they know us by what we are AGAINST. They know we are christians because we are AGAINST homosexuality, AGAINST abortion, AGAINST premarital sex. do i think those things are wrong? yes. but is a homo any more of a sinner than I am? of course not!
and there are tons of Christians who yell and scream about homosexuality, and never think about the fact that gluttony is just as wrong. or look at it this way: is God’s saving grace any less able to save someone who has had an abortion? God forbid!
You said: "only the most horrible of women would sacrifice the life of her own child." the thing is, you’ve gotta own up to the fact that you and me are just as evil.
Wow.  That was beautiful. You just summed up the basis of Christianity: we are ALL sinners, and we all need God’s grace and Jesus’ sacrifice in order to gain forgiveness.
I’m not going to get into the whole debate thing. I just wanted to commend macheteman on his very mature way of thinking. 84-85 |
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| Merrick_Hale |
| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:21 am |
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Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 445
Location: Austin, Texas
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| <Split done. I appreciate the civility that this topic has been treated with. As this is a divisive issue however, I will be keeping an eye on this thread. I will not hesitate to lock it if it degenerates in the slightest.> ~M_H |
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| Felipe Musco |
| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:57 am |
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Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 2434
Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
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Ok, thing is, as far as I’m concerned, I couldn’t care less if someone wants to abort. "Oh, that’s horrible, that’s against Jesus’s will", well, I’m not religious, and I don’t believe it the slightest. "Oh, that could be you", yeah, it could, but it wasn’t, so instead I’m here to discuss. "Oh, my God, you’d do such a horrible thing?" hell, I wouldn’t, I know better, and I take care of myself so it doesn’t have to come down to that, I’ll have my children when I feel ready for it. Thing is, though, governments shouldn’t spend millions which could be put to better use to pay for abortions from careless parents. C’mon, there are ways to prevent this from happening, if it’s not the intention! I’ve studied the subject in college, and even presented a paper on it, and given a lecture, and the best thing me and my study group got to would be:
Freedom comes first. Freedom to do your own free will, and to decide wether or not you want to undergo such a catastrophic change in your body, mind and life. So, here’s where we gotten at:
- Only women can choose wether or not they want to abort, it’s their decision to make, alone, and they can’t (and shouldn’t) be forced to decide otherwise;
- Abortion in cases of rape, or if the child is declared unable to have extra-uterine life (if it’s anencephalic , for instance) is still up to the woman, but if she decides to go through with it, no one can’t say a darned thing;
- If a woman "messed up" and want to undergo abortion, she can, and the government will even pay for it if need be, but if this is the case, then they’ll be entered in a database (unlike the above cases), and will be legally forced to take a course on contraceptive methods;
- If they want to undergo yet another abortion of their own free will, the government will pay for it again, but this time the woman will be also sterilized.
I know, it sounds horrible, and it is. Thing is, sorry for the religious guys, but to governments, religion doesn’t mean the slightest bit, they just use it as a shield when it’s financially profitable. This is a way to keep it that way, while reducing the number of "unwanted" children, thus lessening child abandon and other problems. And about the argument that "so rich people can abort whenever they want?", well, yes, it’d come to that ultimately, but they’re usually more well-informed about stuff, and well, if a woman wants to keep undergoing such a horrendous surgery (believe me when I say this), which risks not only sterilizing her for life, but ALSO killing her, well, be my guest. No one stops people from bungee-jumping even though every now and then one jumpers smashes his face on the ground, right?
Now, for "women don’t belong in politics, they just don’t", how the heck do you get to moderate discussions with a mind (and arguments) like that?!? I’m petrified, AP. No matter what nonsense has been spoken by whoever it may be, women are homo sapiens sapiens as much as men, and it hurts me to see this way of thinking still exists...
What’s next? They can’t drive, as well? Or perhaps they should just stay out of the internet and return to the kitchen, by the oven? Gosh... |
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| sickofpalantirs |
| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:11 pm |
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 7750
Location: somwhere, over the rainbow way up high. There's a land that I heard of once in a lullaby.
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you had some interesting points FM.
beautifully written mm, on the topic of homosexuality, I wouldn’t support my kid if he did. Studies have shown that domestic abuse is twice as likely in homo relationship as in hetero relationships for 1...and kids raised by homosexual parents, are much more likely to get pregnant as a teen if a girl, or more liekly to end up in jail if a boy. |
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| Celebrimbor |
| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:48 pm |
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Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 953
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FM it is clear you are biased against anything having to do with God, so basically what you just said about abortion I have to disagree.
Abortion is murder, no matter how you can justify it. Taking the life of an innocent, unborn child that has done nothing to for your own personal convenience is....bad.
I’m not going to start flaming here, and hope that I didn’t offend anyone, but I must state the truth whether people accept it or not. |
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| Felipe Musco |
| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:02 pm |
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Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 2434
Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
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Newsflash for you: look up crimes.
Murder is one entry. Abortion is another. It’s NOT the same thing. Period. |
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| AgentDrake |
| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:25 pm |
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Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 667
Location: Halfway between eccentric and insane...
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It’s not the same thing as defined by legal-speak.
That doesn’t mean they’re not the same thing as defined by morality/truth.
Of course, this assumes that morality/truth exists, then we get into a whole new can-o’-worms.
It occurs to me that the real question should be: is the unborn a sentient entity? I’m going to try to argue this question as objectively as possible, but I obviously agree with my own conclusion here....
If A, there is no such ting as sentience, and our minds/’souls’ are no more than chemical reactions, then nothing really matters, and we might as well be nihilists.
Or else we have B: sentience/ the soul does exist.
If that’s the case, then it’s a moot point and doesn’t matter at all.
But if A, then we have to ask is the unborn sentient yet?
If it is a sentient entity, then:
A. it is wrong to kill it, because it is sentient.
or
B. It is not wrong to kill a sentient entity (therefore murder is not wrong, either.)
If it is not sentient yet, then what’s to kill?
But how do we know when it becomes sentient?
Christian worldviews argue that sentience/the soul exist at conception. Others argue that it develops later.
We can’t prove one way or the other.
So I argue that, objectively, we take the "moral safe road." |
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