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| CarpeGuitarrem |
 Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:29 pm |
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Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Posts: 3361
Location: Franciscan University of Steubenville
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Felipe Musco wrote:
Freedom comes first. Freedom to do your own free will, and to decide wether or not you want to undergo such a catastrophic change in your body, mind and life.
And thus drinking, drugs, and prostitution all ought to be legal. (Which you might agree with, I don’t know). Regardless of that, it’s not about the right of the woman. It’s about the right of the individual who is growing inside the woman.
Quote: - Only women can choose wether or not they want to abort, it’s their decision to make, alone, and they can’t (and shouldn’t) be forced to decide otherwise;
Only an individual can decide whether to kill. I’ll address the issue of killing at the end.
Quote: - Abortion in cases of rape, or if the child is declared unable to have extra-uterine life (if it’s anencephalic , for instance) is still up to the woman, but if she decides to go through with it, no one can’t say a darned thing;
Those are both sticky issues, I don’t agree with the rape exception, but if the child can’t live outside of the womb (and they know this for certain), wouldn’t it just work to have a miscarriage? Unless it can be proved that it would cause the mother to go insane, a miscarriage would be the better option.
Quote: - If a woman "messed up" and want to undergo abortion, she can, and the government will even pay for it if need be, but if this is the case, then they’ll be entered in a database (unlike the above cases), and will be legally forced to take a course on contraceptive methods;
I’m not sure I agree with this...addressing later. It is good to see that you’re endorsing other methods. (Although IMO contraceptives give either a false sense of security or are in themselves abortifacients)
Quote: - If they want to undergo yet another abortion of their own free will, the government will pay for it again, but this time the woman will be also sterilized.
Whoa, holy cow! How do you go from freedom to this?? I’m sorry, that’s just Orwellian.
Quote: I know, it sounds horrible, and it is. Thing is, sorry for the religious guys, but to governments, religion doesn’t mean the slightest bit, they just use it as a shield when it’s financially profitable. This is a way to keep it that way, while reducing the number of "unwanted" children, thus lessening child abandon and other problems. And about the argument that "so rich people can abort whenever they want?", well, yes, it’d come to that ultimately, but they’re usually more well-informed about stuff, and well, if a woman wants to keep undergoing such a horrendous surgery (believe me when I say this), which risks not only sterilizing her for life, but ALSO killing her, well, be my guest. No one stops people from bungee-jumping even though every now and then one jumpers smashes his face on the ground, right?
Regarding the bit about "unwanted children", this is exactly the mentality that abortion enforces, that an individual is not an individual after all, but merely a good or bad member of society. Apply that to other things, and euthanasia is right down the road, followed closely by ethnic cleansing. Once we decided that the unwanted members of society should be destroyed, who’s to stop us from destroying already-born members of society?
And now to the crux of things. I stand opposed to abortion because I believe it is murder. FM, you say that abortion and murder are listed seperately. (And reading your post, it seems to imply that they are both crimes  ) This doesn’t prove anything. Used to be, slaves and property fell under the same entry in the books. So just because something is currently defined one way by the legal system doesn’t mean it will always be that way. Currently, abortion "isn’t" murder, in the eyes of the law. That’s all that the definition is good for. We’re not debating whether the law considers it to be murder, however. We’re debating about whether it really is murder...what the law says and what actually is are two very different things at times.
So. Is it or isn’t it murder?
Definition of murder...I know it’s not a legal definition, so FM feel free to correct this. But anyway. "The willful taking of a non-combatant life by a person, except during the execution of justice by proper legal authority." That oughta cover it. So let’s see.
I think we both agree that the embryo is a non-combatant, and that the execution of justice is not an issue here. Abortion certainly is willful. The issue seems to be whether or not a life is being taken. To answer that question, we must first determine two things: is an embryo alive?, and is an embryo human?
Okay. I’m pretty sure that we can establish beyond doubt that an embryo is alive. An embryo is made up of living human cells, and as such is either an independent organism or an extension of the mother’s body. That, in fact, is an important distinction to determine. Is the embryo a separate organism from the mother?
I’d like to point out that I haven’t seen a single extension of the human body, once it has left the human body (skin, fingernails, hair, or even a severed limb) move itself, have its own will, and in fact be alive. This suggests to me that the embryo truly is a separate organism, which has developed, unusually enough, from the mother, into a symbiotic relationship with the mother.
So that being said, we have determined that abortion destroys a living thing. The question is, does that living thing have a human life? And I think this is truly where the debate hinges.
What makes a person a person? Is it autonomy? And what extent of autonomy is required? If full autonomy is required, tough luck to all of those mentally handicapped people out there. Looks like it’s time to kill you off to better society. And the embryo does, in fact, display autonomy. In the womb, it moves on its own, and exhibits actions such as implanting in the uterus or, farther along, performing motions inside the womb. Not only that, but the brain waves of embryos have been measured, and it has also been determined than an embryo feels pain.
Perhaps you’d like to argue that for a lot of the pregnancy, an embryo doesn’t look even slightly human. That’s a terrible argument. If we are to base humanity on appearance, then we’ve regressed to the way of thinking that said that Africans weren’t human, because they didn’t look like the generally-accepted notions of humans. I’d like to note that an embryo has human DNA from the moment of its conception, and has in fact achieved its entire geonome from the moment of fertilization. I’d say that makes it an individual.
In short, since the embryo is an individual human, abortion can only be seen as murder. |
| "ok, change of plans. the Cobracards christmas party is coming to my house, and we’re gunna teach FM how to hunt." (mm) |
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| AgentDrake |
| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:34 pm |
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Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 667
Location: Halfway between eccentric and insane...
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CarpeGuitarrem wrote: I’d like to note that an embryo has human DNA from the moment of its conception, and has in fact achieved its entire geonome from the moment of fertilization. I’d say that makes it an individual.
... Plus, the DNA is different from the mother’s, therefore it is not a "part of the mother’s body." |
| Never kid about politicians. The more bizarre the joke, the more likely it is to come true. |
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| Felipe Musco |
| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:02 pm |
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Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 2434
Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
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Surely, but it feeds on her own existance. Miscarriages cause post-traumatic emotional scars that take years to heal. Also, a lot of worms feed from you and liveinside of you, with a different DNA, and we still go and take antibiotics to kill it since we don’t want to have it there. "Oh, but with a baby, it’s natural". Sorry, but the very meaning of the word "nature" would include the other situation as well, those beings "were created" to feed on other beigns, and we’re one of those,so we should accept it, then. Also, yeah, CG, I know my arguments are strong, but mind you, that’s not MY point of view, but rather a group that has undergone deep study of the subject, and that noticed that, at least in Brazil, things are going downhill without those measures. Also, as I said, that’s a point of view STARTING from "abortion should be legal", adressing the whole issue of how to conduct it without burdening the State. About drinking and such, well, smokign is a terrible drug, it causes dependency AND it kills, but it’s legal. As far as I’m concerned, and mind you again, it’s from a political point of view, drugs and prostitution SHOULD be legalized. Why? Simple. The government can then practice quality-control on drugs, for instance, preventing overdoses cause by mixtures. Also, drug-dealing would be over in it’s "gangsta" way, and the government would be able to TAX the activity altogether. There’s no such thing as arguing it can be stopped, so, if it can’t be stopped, then TRY to minimize the downsides of it. Yeah, I’m a radical this way, but things would work a lot better... But, then again, I AM open to other points of view, and I DO preserve life and morals (only not Christian morals, they’re worth squat to me, sorry), that’s why there’s the Orwellian thing  , so people WON’T actually be stupid that way and go about banalizing sex and aborting children up and down. That’d be... sick. |
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| AgentDrake |
| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:41 pm |
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Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 667
Location: Halfway between eccentric and insane...
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Quote: Surely, but it feeds on her own existance. Miscarriages cause post-traumatic emotional scars that take years to heal. Also, a lot of worms feed from you and liveinside of you, with a different DNA, and we still go and take antibiotics to kill it since we don’t want to have it there. "Oh, but with a baby, it’s natural". Sorry, but the very meaning of the word "nature" would include the other situation as well, those beings "were created" to feed on other beigns, and we’re one of those,so we should accept it, then.
Touche. But on the wrong argument. The response isn’t "the kid is natural" because, as you said, so are the parasites.
But the parasites aren’t sentient beings. No souls. The kid is. (or else there are no souls, and it doesn’t matter.) |
| Never kid about politicians. The more bizarre the joke, the more likely it is to come true. |
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| CarpeGuitarrem |
| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:42 pm |
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Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Posts: 3361
Location: Franciscan University of Steubenville
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| The deal with the parasite argument? Parasites aren’t human. If they were human, it would be wrong to destroy them with antibiotics. |
| "ok, change of plans. the Cobracards christmas party is coming to my house, and we’re gunna teach FM how to hunt." (mm) |
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| Felipe Musco |
| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:12 pm |
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Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 2434
Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
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| Why so? Where is it written that humans are "better" than other species, and we have the right to decimate them? Back in the 1600s slaves, then indians were "considered as having no soul", so was it alright to kill them back then? Can you sincerely say that? You can’t, right? SO it’s not "soul" that matters... |
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| macheteman |
| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:17 pm |
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Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 1200
Location: The Jungle
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| well, see, the only thing is that I believe that they did have souls. |
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| elf lvr |
| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:31 pm |
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Joined: 13 Jun 2006
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Location: Rivendell
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I promised myself I wouldn’t get in this. I guess that’s all gone to pot, eh?
Felipe Musco wrote: Surely, but it feeds on her own existance. Miscarriages cause post-traumatic emotional scars that take years to heal.
Indeed. But so do abortions, yes?
Personally, I think abortions should only be legalized in the case of rape. True, the child COULD be adopted (and I’d definately prefer for the woman to have the baby, and if she’s unable to care for it, have someone adopt it), but the mother does have to go through a lot of trouble of oh, say, 9 months of pregnancy.
Us, as men, probably couldn’t imagine exaclty what pregnancy is like (those of us who are married might have a SLIGHTLY better idea). Also, a woman who was raped (especially a young mother, especially a young mother who wasn’t married) won’t feel too good, personally, about carrying a child for nine months. People will make assumptions about her, and I doubt I need to go into what those assumptions would be. Also, should anyone take the time to inquire WHY she was pregnant (instead of making rash generalizations) the mother would definately be hesitant to tell her. One might think it would be easy to draw up the rape as an excuse, but honestly, I KNOW people who have been raped (and they didn’t get pregnant, thank God) and believe it or not, they’re not too keen to talk about it. 
Does this mean I don’t value the child’s life? No, it doesn’t. Does this mean I value the mother’s comfort rather more than the child’s life? No. Why do I take this stance, then? It’s complicated.
I’ll tell you this, though: you may say the abortion of a child is murder (even in the case of rape), and murder is obviously a sin, but isn’t unjustly subjecting a woman, who hasn’t done anything do deserve it (unless you consider getting raped to be a sin...?), to 9 months of pain (emotional and physical) also a sin?
Which sin is worse? We say, in the eyes of God, all sins are the same. So we’re left in a rather odd postition, aren’t we?
Like I said, my personal belief in this particular area isn’t clear-cut (for when it comes to most theology, what IS clear-cut?) but I’m just expressing my thoughts.
Quote: Also, a lot of worms feed from you and liveinside of you, with a different DNA, and we still go and take antibiotics to kill it since we don’t want to have it there. "Oh, but with a baby, it’s natural". Sorry, but the very meaning of the word "nature" would include the other situation as well, those beings "were created" to feed on other beigns, and we’re one of those,so we should accept it, then.
I think we’d both agree, Felipe, that’s rather off topic. We’re not saying we’re sparing the baby becuase "it’s natural," we’re saying that because it’s a life. So this really has no relevence to the topic at hand.
Quote: Also, yeah, CG, I know my arguments are strong, but mind you, that’s not MY point of view, but rather a group that has undergone deep study of the subject, and that noticed that, at least in Brazil, things are going downhill without those measures. Also, as I said, that’s a point of view STARTING from "abortion should be legal", adressing the whole issue of how to conduct it without burdening the State.
Not sure I totally understand your arguement here, Felipe, but a few points:
Just because places are going downhill without a certain law or measure is no reason to implement it; I might say America is going downhill without the measure of "shoot your neighbor" but that’s no reason for me to do it.
Which I realize is irrelevant, I was just poking fun.
And, well, frankly, isn’t it the "State"’s JOB to be burdened by such things as the wellfare of its people?
Quote: About drinking and such, well, smokign is a terrible drug, it causes dependency AND it kills, but it’s legal. As far as I’m concerned, and mind you again, it’s from a political point of view, drugs and prostitution SHOULD be legalized. Why? Simple. The government can then practice quality-control on drugs, for instance, preventing overdoses cause by mixtures. Also, drug-dealing would be over in it’s "gangsta" way, and the government would be able to TAX the activity altogether. There’s no such thing as arguing it can be stopped, so, if it can’t be stopped, then TRY to minimize the downsides of it. Yeah, I’m a radical this way, but things would work a lot better...
It’s actually a good idea (politically), but only in theory. Really, those of us who believe that stuff is wrong (and I do, but I agree there really is no way to STOP it happening, with the sparse human powers we have) would oppose it at every junction. Also, fact is, while government SAYS it’s controlling drinking and smoking (through measures of an age limit, limiting advertisements, and not allowing smoking in public facilities, at least as far as individual states are concerned) they would really LOVE to make such things legal, and in fact, to have people practice them AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. For this reason: if these things were legal, they could be taxed; if they could be taxed, the government would get money; and if the government finds a new avenue of getting money, they’ll want more. Morally, it’s wrong, but that’s the reality; the government isn’t interested in the well-being of the people much anymore, just about cold, hard cash.
Some people may attack my beliefs because I said that, but I am a Christain, and a fervent one; point is, only God himself appearing from heaven and smiting the wrongdoers is going to STOP people doing it, nor would legalizing it curb it, nor did ILLEGALIZING it ever curb it. There’s no way around the way this world is; people will do wrong.
But anyways, THAT is also off the topic of abortion...
Quote: But, then again, I AM open to other points of view, and I DO preserve life and morals (only not Christian morals, they’re worth squat to me, sorry),
I can accept that you don’t accept the Christain faith, Felipe, but don’t generalize "murder is bad" as being a Christian belief, and thus something you don’t advocate. Lots of religions (and even atheists, if you can believe it) think that murder is wrong.
Dont’ knock a belief just because Christians believe it, and you don’t advocate Christianity as a whole.
It really all comes down to whether or not you believe abortion is murder; if you do, you’re against it, if you don’t, you’re for it. And nothing the other side says will likely change your belief, without evidence (and in theological, right v. wrong debates, there never really is "proof"). So all this arguing is really pointless.
Gosh, that’s how I end all the arguements, eh? "It’s pointless." Maybe I need a new standpoint... |
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| bunnydaman |
| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:35 pm |
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Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 338
Location: 'hillbilliesville'
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I am so sorry i started this, i did not mean to make it go this far, all i said was that i liked obama, and then the whole abortion thing started. cant we just forget about it? obviously no one in convincing anyone of anything. its pointless other than getting people mad at eachother! we dont want that. lets talk about someting happy, like, cake, or someting.
btw, FM,  for being non-religious. finally someone like me...
cake is good. i like chocolate with chocolate frosting. yellow cake with home-made buttercream frosting is very good, i just made one a while ago. its heavenly.  yum |
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| sickofpalantirs |
| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:47 pm |
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| its an abortion thread now. too late. I have to say, this has been very interesting indeed... |
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