| |
| Author |
Message |
| NBarden |
 Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:03 pm |
|
|
|
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 5468
Location: I don't know...
|
A little short on time but I had a point I wanted to make.
Felipe Musco wrote: - So, if a mother-to-be doesn’t want to be so, why should she? Is it in our power to FORCE them to? Says who? You know, being a mother is a state of spirit and mind, not only of biological changes, so we shouldn’t force women into that state. Think about this situations:
- Being the head of a family is a tough position. Life can impose that burden on you sometimes, but otherwise, you get to choose, right? And even when life DOES force you into such a situation, you can STILL choose to simply run away, can’t you? Of course, some don’t, like some women DO choose to keep their unplanned babies;
If a mother-to-be doesn’t want to be, she doesn’t have to be. Thus, if she decides when her child hits the terrible twos, that she doesn’t want to be their mother anymore, she has the right to kill her child. We cannot FORCE her to be the mother, and thus, this is not wrong.
This argument doesn’t defend abortion one bit.
The fact is, if she doesn’t want to be the mother, she doesn’t have to be. Ever heard of adoption? Or abstinence? Why does not wanting to be a mother mean that you have to kill your child?
If this argument is used for abortion, its ludicrous, but if just a generic assertion, I agree.
No offense to you meant, I don’t mean to irritate you, ironically, this debate was the VERY one that got me on pyschosick’s ban list a while back. Actually, it was the use of the term "pro-death" that got me on his ban list... |
Last edited by NBarden on Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:05 pm; edited 1 time in total -Trade With Me
 Add the popcorn smiley to your sig, help it achieve world domination.
What if the hokey pokey really IS what its all about? 
As I lay in bed staring at the stars last night, I thought to myself, "where the heck is the ceiling?"
 Spotlight on....Sense of Obligation. |
|
| Back to top |
|
| Felipe Musco |
| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:04 pm |
|
|
|
Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 2434
Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
|
Thanks for the last part AD, didn’t know it.
As for being sentient, it’s been proved that Chimps, Dolphins, Elephants, Pigs and other animals ARE sentient AND capable of higher reasoning as well in their own way (they can actually learn stuff by experience, and transmit that experience to others in rudimentary ways), which means others could as well be. Not reasoning like us, humans, but still reasoning. So this is not up for discussion. Now, as to having a soul... Every living being is supposed to have a soul (and I believe in it, although in a slightly different way), they’re all living animals (also proven and not up for discussion), so they all have souls.
So, we get to the same place again, but I’ll phrase it differently: is it FAIR to simply DECIDE that humans’ life have a higher value JUST BECAUSE WE ARE HUMAN? Of COURSE we’d like to put ourselves above the rest, since we’re the ones calling the shots now, but is it FAIR? Is it the RIGHT thing to do? A lot of Dictators have done that throughout history, that is, putting themselves and the ones they want above all else when they’re calling the shots, so, was Hitler right in declaring jews should be annihilated? ’cause that’s where we’re getting at by that line of view...
PS: Human beings ALSO fall under the "animal" category, for the record. We just created another word for us, you know, to feel special. 
PPS: @ NBarden:
1 - You do not irritate me, I’m liking this discussion!
2 - I don’t really care for anyone’s ban list (although I was in his like list and you were not, hah!)
3 - The part about the mother that kills her child, the child is already born, so even though it’s her child, it falls more under the generic example of the neighbour (it’s HORRIBLE, and I’d NEVER encourage something like it, but she CAN choose to put her child up for adoption, or even worse, "move out", abandoning it); than under the one of a parasitic being feeding from her own existance AND putting her life in danger (mind you, not always in high levels, but ALWAYS in SOME levels, even if it’s only a little) while promoting a whole bunch of biological chances she’s not ready to undergo, or either don’t WANT to. |
| I don't like YOU. |
|
| Back to top |
|
| NBarden |
| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:23 pm |
|
|
|
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 5468
Location: I don't know...
|
@F_M, who cares about Ban or Like lists anyway? I’m going to stand for what I believe in even if people are trying to get me banned. I would consider it a greater honor to be on his ban list than his like list. No offense to you, F_M, being on his like list doesn’t make you inferior or anything.
You stress the risk of harm that comes with pregnancy. What about the risk of harm that comes from abortion? Is that not a vastly higher chance? When it comes to the health of the mother, abortion is almost ALWAYS the worst choice, and even if it is the best PHYSICAL choice, what about psychological health? |
-Trade With Me
Add the popcorn smiley to your sig, help it achieve world domination.
What if the hokey pokey really IS what its all about?
As I lay in bed staring at the stars last night, I thought to myself, "where the heck is the ceiling?"
Spotlight on....Sense of Obligation. |
|
| Back to top |
|
| Felipe Musco |
| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:38 pm |
|
|
|
Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 2434
Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
|
| You are correct, abortion DOES pose a greater risk, That’s why, even abortion was to be LEGAL, it would have to have a deadline to be done. About psychological scars, I can’t really discuss the matter deeper due to "professional secrecy", but the woman can overcome it quicker in the 6-8 months that would follow her pregnancy (plus a few, sometimes) than if she carries the whole thing through. Also, about the harm risk, most of the risk involved today is because abortion is made in clandestine clinics, and/or either too late, or too shabbily, or in too "barbaric" ways (anyone remembers Demi Moore and the sewing needle?). Done correctly, AT THE RIGHT TIME (NBarden made me remember a VERY IMPORTANT point, thanks), it presents as much risk as a normal labor would. "But then it DOES present risk". Yes, whenever you lay on a OR’s bed, you ARE at risk. EVERY TIME, no matter what doctors may say. But, so are you at risk when skydiving, of bungee-jumping, right? What’s the difference? You CHOSE to take that risk. An aborting woman would have CHOSEN to take the risk. Now imagine one that WANTS to abort, can’t do it because she’s not allowed to, and then dies in labor. How unfair would THAT be? |
| I don't like YOU. |
|
| Back to top |
|
| CarpeGuitarrem |
| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:52 pm |
|
|
|
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Posts: 3361
Location: Franciscan University of Steubenville
|
Abortion is legal in the USA, and the risks are still higher. Going in with a scalpel or whatnot to cut up an unborn definitely poses a considerably higher medical risk than having the woman go through labor. This isn’t the old days, when it was a definite possibility for a woman to die after labor.
And regarding what makes a human life intangible, it’s not that it’s sentient. I agree that animals are sentient. But animals do not have an intellect and will, they do not have the power of abstraction, they do not think, only respond to stimuli. There has been no definitive proof that I have seen that they can reason. Man is, as one philosopher put it, "the rational animal". ("animal" being a living thing as distinguished from plant)
But if you’re going to argue that human and animal lives have the same worth, I suppose you’re a vegan, and a member of PETA? Or Greenpeace, that works too. |
| "ok, change of plans. the Cobracards christmas party is coming to my house, and we’re gunna teach FM how to hunt." (mm) |
|
| Back to top |
|
| NBarden |
| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:06 pm |
|
|
|
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 5468
Location: I don't know...
|
Felipe Musco wrote: Now imagine one that WANTS to abort, can’t do it because she’s not allowed to, and then dies in labor. How unfair would THAT be?
How fair is it if the child wants to be born and is murdered while in the womb? It is never fair to kill a human being. Dying in labor, how often does that happen?
So let me get this straight. You believe abortion is okay, in particular circumstances, performed at the right time, with the right medical conditions, with the right procedure, where abortion is absolutely necessary and it wasn’t the mother’s choice. I will completely dismiss this scenario until you can bring up the probability of this actually occurring. |
-Trade With Me
Add the popcorn smiley to your sig, help it achieve world domination.
What if the hokey pokey really IS what its all about?
As I lay in bed staring at the stars last night, I thought to myself, "where the heck is the ceiling?"
Spotlight on....Sense of Obligation. |
|
| Back to top |
|
| AgentDrake |
| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:20 pm |
|
|
|
Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 667
Location: Halfway between eccentric and insane...
|
Ah....
Stupid me.
Looks like I had the definition of sentience wrong.... 
I feel like an idiot.
Anyway, CG’s comments were what I had meant by "sentience." Sorry ’bout that. |
| Never kid about politicians. The more bizarre the joke, the more likely it is to come true. |
|
| Back to top |
|
| elf lvr |
| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:46 pm |
|
|
|
Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 3065
Location: Rivendell
|
CarpeGuitarrem wrote: Abortion is legal in the USA, and the risks are still higher. Going in with a scalpel or whatnot to cut up an unborn definitely poses a considerably higher medical risk than having the woman go through labor. This isn’t the old days, when it was a definite possibility for a woman to die after labor.
How true. Just becaue it’s legal doesn’t mean the government regulates it and makes it safe. Why should they care about the well being of their citizens? They have POLITICS to be getting on with. 
Quote: And regarding what makes a human life intangible, it’s not that it’s sentient. I agree that animals are sentient. But animals do not have an intellect and will, they do not have the power of abstraction, they do not think, only respond to stimuli. There has been no definitive proof that I have seen that they can reason. Man is, as one philosopher put it, "the rational animal". ("animal" being a living thing as distinguished from plant)
Proof that they can reason is out there and in high quanitity, google Jane Goodall (I think that was her name...) or something.
Whether humans are on a higher level than animals comes down to this:
Religious standpoint. A Christian, like myself (though I might not exactly support this exact view) might say that humans are "God’s Chosen," and that they are the only beings with souls, and the only beings that will rise to reason on such a level. So a human life is precious. Which doesn’t imply that an animal life is not, I don’t exactly go out and deep-fry the squirrels in the woods by my house every day for the fun of it, but the view that a human life is of higher value than an animal life is a definately natural belief. Felipe, you may say that this makes me no better than Hitler, but here’s the vital difference; he, quite obviously, considered Jews lives to be of NO worth, or even negative worth, really, while we can still put human lives on a higher pedestal than an animal’s, yet still care about the animal. You can’t say that if you could save a person or a dog from a burning building, it’d be up to a coin flip to decide, eh, Felipe?
Or perhaps you do consider animals to be quite as sentinent and soulful as humans, in which case, that’s really a ’religious’ belief. Well, perhaps not religious, exactly, but at least theological. And anyways, if that’s true, I would like to hear your views.
But that’s kinda off the point.
Quote: But if you’re going to argue that human and animal lives have the same worth, I suppose you’re a vegan, and a member of PETA? Or Greenpeace, that works too.
A fair enough point, but don’t go generalizing a person’s beliefs just one a few things they say.  Just because Felipe isn’t a member of PETA or a vegan doesn’t mean he doesn’t value animals’ lives.
Although if he does consider them on the same level as peoples’ (and again, Felipe, I’d love to hear what you DO believe about that) we can’t say that that’s a "wrong" or "immoral" view without going into our own religious beliefs.
Then this would all dissolve into a huge religion thing, which isn’t the point (or maybe it is?).
Anyways, I don’t know, I’m just sort of argueing a little bit on either side, whenever I find something in somone’s arguement that seems a little fluffy.
Although, here’s my actual view on the thing.
Abortion shouldn’t be legal. MAYBE include an exception in the case of rape. But here’s my line of thought.
1) Humans are sentinent beings. Each human life is precious and could become something special. Someone might argue that the child wouldn’t live a full life with a mother that couldn’t support it, or didn’t want it, but I’m sure we could all come up with examples of people who rose out of such conditions to become great.
2) It’s the mother’s choice not to get pregnant. There’s a thing called abstinence, which I believe people should practice until marriage. On the other hand, there ARE contraceptive things like birth control (which I don’t like, in a woman, it’s like placing a huge "Open For Business" sign on her, and is exactly what happens in a society like ours) and ’safety’ procedures. And while those might not always work, there IS something that does. Abstinence, abstinence, abstinence.
3) While some say pregnancy could be harmful to the mother, an abortion is as well. So either way, the mother is going to end up with a risk of being hurt. If anyone can prove the risk is significantly greater one way or another, maybe that’d convince me slightly. And also, again, if the mother wanted to be safe... there’s a golden rule, but then there’s a golden word: Abstinence.
4) In the case of rape, well, it wasn’t the mother’s choice at all. But I still consider the child’s life precious. So I can’t, while following my own beliefs, choose one side or another IN THAT CASE, so I guess it’s up to the mother to decide, and pray whatever happens is what God planned. |
Happy Hunting! Elf Lvr
Winner of Best Personality in the FPCA. Thanks!
Archduke Elf Lvr - Archidoux of the Chosen Ones
AMV Maker In-Training! Check out my newest production, Katsu!- A Diedara Tribute!
And behold, EL declared it good. And there was morning, and there was evening, the first (new) day. ~ DainIronfoot |
|
| Back to top |
|
| bunnydaman |
| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:23 pm |
|
|
|
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 338
Location: 'hillbilliesville'
|
the child isnt alive yet. if it’s far enough into the pregnancy than i think it is not good to abort, but if the child is just beginnng to develop, and it is not living yet, than it is not murdur, it is just preventing life.
i used to think that abortion was bad. aweful. i hated it. but then, my mom discussed the topic with me and convinced me that it was okay at times. let all teenagers and adults know the dangers of abortion and try to convince them not to get it, but if they really want to, they should be allowed. I want to go on, b ut i have to have dinner, so I cant.
fine...let the topic go on, but dont got to bad with this please.  |
-"He’s like a spamming assasin." ~lem0nhead about SoP
"Yes, I'm a girl. And no, not like elf lvr."
[idea from FM] |
|
| Back to top |
|
| macheteman |
| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:27 pm |
|
|
|
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 1200
Location: The Jungle
|
bunnydaman wrote: the child isnt alive yet.
i believe you are somewhat mistaken. a zygote is actually alive. The union of the sperm and the egg create one living cell. this cell has human DNA, and is a (very small) living human being. |
Check out my best article The Utterly Corrupt Corruption,
If at first you don't succeed...Sky-diving isn't for you.
"Combat is dangerous. It tends to interupt your breathing process."
ROLF!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
All times are UTC - 4
|
Page 5 of 11 [104 Posts] |
Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 Next |
|
|
Forum index » General Discussion » Members' Lounge