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| NBarden |
 Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:42 pm |
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Joined: 28 Dec 2006
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Thranduil wrote: NBarden wrote: However, the Bible doesn’t advocate killing anyone who disagrees with us like the Koran does.
Just as an example, what about the Amalekites in the Old Testament? The Bible COMMANDS that we kill ALL members of the tribe of Amalek.
Pardon me. I didn’t realize that everyone who disagreed with us was a member of the tribe of Amalek.
Quote: As for the minority point, until VERY recently, it was the generally accepted Christian view that non-Christians should be forcibly converted so that they wouldn’t go to Hell. It’s not as rare today as you might think.
Ancient Catholicism bears no resemblance whatsoever to Christianity. They have a different Bible, believe in an intermittent holding place where souls could burn off sins and go to heaven, believes the common man shouldn’t be able to understand Christianity, they sold remittances, and otherwise were as different from Christianity as Christianity was from Islam. No offense to Catholics, the church has reformed substantially, but that’s how it was. They’re the ones that taught forcible conversion, when the Bible clearly states that we are to love our enemies.
Don’t tell me that Christianity is as violent as Islam. Its not. |
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| Thranduil |
| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:50 pm |
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NBarden wrote: Pardon me. I didn’t realize that everyone who disagreed with us was a member of the tribe of Amalek.
I’m not saying that either, just pointing out that the foundation is there for people to misinterpret. It’s the same foundation that’s found in the Q’uran, the same sort of basis for violence. Anyone who came along and didn’t know the interpretations or the commentaries could see this concept and believe in it.
NBarden wrote: Ancient Catholicism bears no resemblance whatsoever to Christianity. They have a different Bible, believe in an intermittent holding place where souls could burn off sins and go to heaven, believes the common man shouldn’t be able to understand Christianity, they sold remittances, and otherwise were as different from Christianity as Christianity was from Islam. No offense to Catholics, the church has reformed substantially, but that’s how it was. They’re the ones that taught forcible conversion, when the Bible clearly states that we are to love our enemies.
I wasn’t talking about Medieval Christianity - I’m talking about Christianity today. Yes there is much less of that sense religious exclusivism in modern society, but there are still those who think that all those who are not Christian will go to Hell.
NBarden wrote: Don’t tell me that Christianity is as violent as Islam. Its not.
In the past, it has been, if not more so. In the Middle Ages, the Europeans were little more than barbarians compared to the science and tolerance of the Byzantine Muslim world. My point is that there is more than enough in the Bible for people to find a basis for Holy War, just like the Muslims have done. The fact that this hasn’t really happened to the Christians since the Crusades is commendable, but I suspect it will never disappear.
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| sickofpalantirs |
| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:31 pm |
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Thranduil wrote: sickofpalantirs wrote: he uses the Quran and The Haliths or whatever they are called to prove islam for what it is.
What - a religion? What exactly are you insinuating here?
Thranduil
read the book 
I think NBarden can handle the rest of this debate.
And Christianity wasn’t started on killing a bunch of people (As Islam was) CHRISTIANITY (not Judaism) was started by a bunch of disciples telling people about Jesus who they believed had risen from the dead, and was God.
Like it or not, Islam was started on blood, and spread by blood. |
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| NBarden |
| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:38 pm |
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| Celebrimbor |
| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:07 pm |
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Thranduil wrote: In all fairness, so do some branches of Christianity.
Thranduil
I knew someone would say something like that... The Catholics were the worst when it comes to this...The crusades, burning "heretics" at the stake who the Catholic church didn’t like, etc etc.
I’d say that this is in human nature, in general. |
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| gil-estel |
| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:24 am |
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We should not try to defend christianity as a whole, because loads of things went wrong during the way. The violence has been mentioned, but what about the personal harm that has been done to others. Many christians, present and in the past, are/were judgemental and do not spread the Love of God. Jesus said: I’m not here to judge, I’m here to save! In His salvation is a part that is judgemental, I know, but nevertheless it is a whole different approach. Jesus went to those who were to be avoided. Prostitutes, foreigners, possesed people...outlaws. So with not following Jesus we have done -yes, I speak also for my self- a lot of damage to the Kingdom of God.
I think the best attitude towards Muslims is to keep the conversation going. Don’t judge the book by the cover. There are wise, sensitive people -don’t read it as if I were surprised by that fact- amongst them and not all defend fundamentelist actions. Not all are terrorists.
Talk with them, how many of you -again including myself- actually know a muslim? Talking with them is something different then agreeing with them. Be strong, respectfully telling in whatever lies your hope! |
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| Thranduil |
| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:02 pm |
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I wasn’t arguing that Islam was not born out of conflict - there’s no doubt that it was. But you’ve also got to consider the fact that the Muslim world never had a Renaissance and so has simply decayed while the Western world has grown. They’ve had no chance to get over the violence. You have to at least learn where they’re coming from.
gil-estel wrote: Not all are terrorists.
Rather, most are not and most, certainly in Western counties, do not in any way agree with fundamentalism. Those in the East that do is largely because of large-scale and popularised fundamentalism of the governments over them.
NBarden wrote: Um...yeah. That kinda is a basic tenet of Christianity, one I agree with.
And it’s a dangerous one. It means fundamentally that you believe everyone who is not of your religion deserves to be punished. I think history has proven that’s a very short step away from blatant racism, war and even genocide.
Thranduil |
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| sickofpalantirs |
| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:47 pm |
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we also believe that everyone OF our religion Deserves to be punished, but by the grace of God and the Sacrifice of his son, we can be saved from it.
in a nutshell |
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| gil-estel |
| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:38 pm |
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Joined: 25 Apr 2007
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Thranduil wrote:
gil-estel wrote: Not all are terrorists.
Rather, most are not and most, certainly in Western counties, do not in any way agree with fundamentalism. Those in the East that do is largely because of large-scale and popularised fundamentalism of the governments over them.
Ai, are you trying the best you can to bring some nuance to your story, are you forgetting something! I surely mean that most are not violent. I think we can learn from eachother, especially that we’ve something in common: we both are making life-changing choices in order to conform to our faith. From that perspective there ought to be some understanding. |
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| NBarden |
| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:12 pm |
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Thranduil wrote: NBarden wrote: Um...yeah. That kinda is a basic tenet of Christianity, one I agree with.
And it’s a dangerous one. It means fundamentally that you believe everyone who is not of your religion deserves to be punished. I think history has proven that’s a very short step away from blatant racism, war and even genocide.
Thranduil
As SoP said, we believe that everyone on earth deserves to be punished, because, quite frankly, everyone on earth has messed up. God, however, gave an option to escape punishment to anyone who accepts it. Its not that some deserve punishment and some don’t. |
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Add the popcorn smiley to your sig, help it achieve world domination.
What if the hokey pokey really IS what its all about?
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