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| Gate Troll |
 Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:53 pm |
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Joined: 15 Aug 2006
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Location: Udun Vale, Home of the one and only... Gate Troll!
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NBarden wrote: Thranduil wrote: NBarden wrote: Um...yeah. That kinda is a basic tenet of Christianity, one I agree with.
And it’s a dangerous one. It means fundamentally that you believe everyone who is not of your religion deserves to be punished. I think history has proven that’s a very short step away from blatant racism, war and even genocide.
Thranduil
As SoP said, we believe that everyone on earth deserves to be punished, because, quite frankly, everyone on earth has messed up. God, however, gave an option to escape punishment to anyone who accepts it. Its not that some deserve punishment and some don’t.
Technically God doesn’t give us an option; he opens our hearts so we desire him. The Armenians started a heresy which taught that God gives us an option that we can ’yea or nay’ him. That is false. God gives us the ability, no, the desire to accept the gospel and embrace Jesus as our Lord and Savior. God gives us the desire to revert to our original, perfect, state, not by immediately perfecting us, but by raising our spirit from death.
Anyway, I’m not trying to contradict you I’m simply trying to clarify that point.
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| "Wars may be fought with weapons, but they are won by men. It is the spirit of the men who follow and of the man who leads that gains that victory."-George S. Patton. |
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| NBarden |
| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:34 am |
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Gate Troll wrote: NBarden wrote: Thranduil wrote: NBarden wrote: Um...yeah. That kinda is a basic tenet of Christianity, one I agree with.
And it’s a dangerous one. It means fundamentally that you believe everyone who is not of your religion deserves to be punished. I think history has proven that’s a very short step away from blatant racism, war and even genocide.
Thranduil
As SoP said, we believe that everyone on earth deserves to be punished, because, quite frankly, everyone on earth has messed up. God, however, gave an option to escape punishment to anyone who accepts it. Its not that some deserve punishment and some don’t.
Technically God doesn’t give us an option; he opens our hearts so we desire him. The Armenians started a heresy which taught that God gives us an option that we can ’yea or nay’ him. That is false. God gives us the ability, no, the desire to accept the gospel and embrace Jesus as our Lord and Savior. God gives us the desire to revert to our original, perfect, state, not by immediately perfecting us, but by raising our spirit from death.
Anyway, I’m not trying to contradict you I’m simply trying to clarify that point.
And hence begins the Armenianism vs Calvanism debate that really doesn’t matter, except that we like to nit-pick at little details.
BTW, I’m more Armenian than Calvanist, but let’s not deviate from the point of the thread. I’ll be pm-ing you, though. |
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| Shieldmaiden |
| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:13 am |
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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I can’t stand religious intolerance, no matter what religion it comes from. Everyone believes that their own god is the right one, and that anyone who worships a different god will meet some kind of penance for not worshipping the "correct" god. I really like what gil-estel says:
Quote: I think we can learn from eachother, especially that we’ve something in common: we both are making life-changing choices in order to conform to our faith. From that perspective there ought to be some understanding.
I couldn’t have said it better myself.
I know a few muslims; there are many here in Britain. They live quietly, and they are kind. They also strongly disagree with the extremists. The extremists cause trouble for other Muslims because people tend to tar them all with the same brush. My friends do not want Shariah law in Britain. They just want to live their lives and practise their religion in peace, while obeying British law.
Most Christian faiths do not like to be tarred with the same brush as Catholics (who are Christians too), who committed many atrocities in ages past. So please do not say that all Muslims are like the extremists. I agree with Thranduil. You can find passages in the Koran that tell people to kill people of other religions, but you can find the same kinds of passages in the Bible.
Getting back to the original post, however, I would like to say that I do NOT want Shariah law in Britain. As long as Muslims follow British law, though, I am happy to live with them (the non-extremists) amongst us. |
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| Gate Troll |
| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:24 am |
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Shieldmaiden wrote: I can’t stand religious intolerance, no matter what religion it comes from. Everyone believes that their own god is the right one, and that anyone who worships a different god will meet some kind of penance for not worshipping the "correct" god.
It really doesn’t matter whether you can ’stand it’ or not. The God of Creation, the LORD of all peoples declared that all who sin deserve eternal damnation in the fires of hell. People who say that they can’t stand religious intolerance have this wishy-washy belief that damnation in hell is ’unfair’ to those of another religion. |
| "Wars may be fought with weapons, but they are won by men. It is the spirit of the men who follow and of the man who leads that gains that victory."-George S. Patton. |
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| Shieldmaiden |
| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:34 am |
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Really GT? And what if your religion is not the "correct" one? What if the Jews are right? Or the Muslims? Or any one of the other religions that proclaim people outside their religion as damned? If one of those is truly god’s religion, then you are headed for damnation.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not attacking Christianity (I am a Christian myself). What I’m saying, though, is that attacking someone else just because of their faith means that you’re in the same mindset as the extremists. You might not kill anyone, but you have hatred in your heart towards other people. And you think that anyone who doesn’t believe the same as you should be punished. I don’t believe that God wants his children to hate each other like this. |
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| Thranduil |
| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:41 am |
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Shieldmaiden wrote: I can’t stand religious intolerance, no matter what religion it comes from. Everyone believes that their own god is the right one, and that anyone who worships a different god will meet some kind of penance for not worshipping the "correct" god.
Which is absurd as far as monotheism is concerned - if all Abrahamic religions believe in 1 and only 1 God, how can one be more "correct" than another? God is surely therefore greater than any one religion.
GateTroll wrote: It really doesn’t matter whether you can ’stand it’ or not. The God of Creation, the LORD of all peoples declared that all who sin deserve eternal damnation in the fires of hell. People who say that they can’t stand religious intolerance have this wishy-washy belief that damnation in hell is ’unfair’ to those of another religion.
We will tolerate one another, or we will die. If humanity believes what you believe, then we’ll deserve it.
Thranduil |
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| kingmj4891 |
| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:34 am |
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Thranduil said:
Quote: We will tolerate one another, or we will die. If humanity believes what you believe, then we’ll deserve it.
Why does it matter what religion anybody is? Doesn’t everyone have the right to believe in what they want to believe in seriously, as long a no one pushes their beliefs on me I could care less what you believe in. I tend to pull away from religion because it is an instrument of men not an instrument of God. If we look at history men have been putting their own ideas and opinions into religion and what God wants out of us. I personally find that it is more beneficial to me to be a spiritual person and base my life on spiritual principles rather then the ideas of a Christian, Muslim, Judea, or any other religions God. I am not saying I don’t have a God, but I have a God of my own understanding and that works for me. I can pick and choose my own beliefs and as long as it falls in a good human moral standard of ethics. If your religious God works for you that is fine but don’t push it on me. I believe we all need a set of ethics, based on human ideals, rights, and principles not religious one. If we as a humans can just do the next right thing then I believe everyone is in the right and no one is wrong. Being honest, open-minded, and having willingness to accept life for what it is gets me through each day and when I die I can make peace with God or whatever is there knowing I lived my life to the best of my ability. So any group or religion that’s wants to push their beliefs on me go talk to someone else about it cause I am happy with my own beliefs. I also feel that God is not wrathful and hateful, but caring and loving so God doesn’t punish us we do by making poor decisions in our lives.
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| NBarden |
| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:10 pm |
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Joined: 28 Dec 2006
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Shieldmaiden wrote: Really GT? And what if your religion is not the "correct" one? What if the Jews are right? Or the Muslims? Or any one of the other religions that proclaim people outside their religion as damned? If one of those is truly god’s religion, then you are headed for damnation.
You seem to miss the point. Christianity doesn’t say everyone outside our religion is dammed. It says that everybody is dammed, but all are offered an escape route, which anyone can take.Those who take it go to heaven. Those who don’t take it continue on the path to damnation. Its left up to the person.
At least, that’s the Armenian doctrine, which the vast majority of Christians believe, Calvanism teaches something slightly different, but still pretty much the same.
That being said, I don’t see how you can find a more tolerant religion as Christianity. Do we believe other religions are wrong? Yes. Are we going to chop off their heads calling them infidels and screaming the name of Allah because they disagree? No. If they choose the escape route, we are more than happy to accept anyone, and we see time and time again in Scripture the acceptance for all. Just read some of the miracles of Jesus, healing paralytics, lepers, who were the ultimate outcasts, Gentiles, Samaritans (who would be considered in that time a different religion that the Jews hated).
I don’t think you’ll get more tolerant than that. |
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Add the popcorn smiley to your sig, help it achieve world domination.
What if the hokey pokey really IS what its all about?
As I lay in bed staring at the stars last night, I thought to myself, "where the heck is the ceiling?"
Spotlight on....Sense of Obligation. |
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| Shieldmaiden |
| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:23 pm |
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Joined: 07 May 2007
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lol, that’s exactly my point, thank you. According to your beliefs, everyone is damned until they accept the escape route, Christianity.
As much as I’m enjoying this debate (I don’t mean this sarcastically, I really have had fun with it), I am now going to bow out and go back to talking about LotR. Have fun!  |
Trade With Me, I went to Middle Earth, and all I got was this stupid ring!
Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I stuck around. |
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| NBarden |
| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:25 pm |
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