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Turin06
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:02 am
Joined: 24 Oct 2006 Posts: 197 Location: Good Question
I’m English but I lived in America all through my early teens and have American relatives. Anyway I have found the American election so far to be extremely interesting and wondered what you Americans thought about certain aspects.

- John McCain, He is now the Republican nominee. What do you think of him? Personally I am quite a centrailist. My christianity compells me towards a socialist desire to help the poor and others but my christianity also means that I am conservative when it comes to my morals and standards. I quite like him as he seems reasonably liberal for a conservative.

-Obama, Clinton. What do you guys think of them? Who will win out? Could the loser run as viceP for the other? Even if you areRepublican which would you pick for pres if you had to have one of them?

-The issues. Healthcare? The War? Illegal imigrants?

-Torture. I have made a special section for this issue as it has been burning at me ever since Bush’s veto. What is your oppinion on the use of torture? Personally I believe it goes against everything America should be. It’s time America decided quite how far it’s willing to go down a dark path in the name of security and this could be the decisive issue.
Between the conception
And the creation
Between the emotion
And the response
Falls the Shadow
gil-estel
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:06 am
Joined: 25 Apr 2007 Posts: 545 Location: Groningen, the Netherlands
I subscribe this topic, for it is also on my mind...espécially the last one.
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AgentDrake
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:53 am
Joined: 01 Apr 2007 Posts: 667 Location: Halfway between eccentric and insane...
Turin06 wrote:
I’m English but I lived in America all through my early teens and have American relatives. Anyway I have found the American election so far to be extremely interesting and wondered what you Americans thought about certain aspects.

- John McCain, He is now the Republican nominee. What do you think of him? Personally I am quite a centrailist. My christianity compells me towards a socialist desire to help the poor and others but my christianity also means that I am conservative when it comes to my morals and standards. I quite like him as he seems reasonably liberal for a conservative.

McCain... IMHO he’s sounding better all the time, that’s for sure. Never did really like him, though some of the stuff that most conservatives are mad at him about I don’t quite figure why (probably because I wasn’t paying attention at the time). Wish Sen. Brownback (R-Kansas) had stayed in, and not just because I’m from Kansas, either....

-Obama, Clinton. What do you guys think of them? Who will win out? Could the loser run as viceP for the other? Even if you areRepublican which would you pick for pres if you had to have one of them?

They’re not going to be eachother’s VP. Despite all the happy-faces, I’m pretty sure they hate eachother.
I was expecting Obama to pull through, but now that someone in the media besides Hannity (who was pounding on this for months) has started talking about Obama’s preacher, he may take a huge hit. Don’t know what, if any, effect his speech will have yet.
Hillary... *shudder*

-The issues. Healthcare? The War? Illegal imigrants?
Healthcare... The last thing we want is to screw up healthcare even more. One of the biggest things we can do to improve things, including cost, is to kick the AMA out of it’s position of supreme arbiter of the Medical Profession with government power. Take away the gov’t power, because the AMA is not part of the government. They’re a dictatorial union which has monopolized healthcare and is actively seeking to control every aspect of the health market, including putting high-quality doctors out of business, because they hurt the business of lower-quality doctors with ties in the upper echelons of AMA.

The War: Cheez... half the idiots complaining about the war don’t comprehend the nature of this war. We’re not fighting an enemy with a "nerve center" there’s no single objective that we can take, no leader to capture. no general to force surrender on. We’re fighting a cellular, disunited enemy. Take out twenty terrorist cells, and none of the others even bat an eye. Their ties to the others are extremely limited. How can we speed it up? Take out more cells faster. How? More troops to take on more cells at once. Oh, wait.... I thought a surge wasn’t supposed to work? (it did work) On the other hand, we are never going to wipe out terrorism. That’s fighting an idea. You can’t destroy an idea. You can hide it, suppress it, but you cannot destroy it. Even if we were to take out every terrorist in the world, more would eventually show up.
As for being in Iraq,
1. We’re following UN mandate. Hussein defied the UN by refusing UN inspection of various facilities, and the UN ordered him to let them in or be invaded. He didn’t. The UN never sent it’s little blue-helmeted wanna-be soldiers, we went. Along with most of the rest of NATO.
2. There were weapons. The media throws a fit because "we have found no weapons." No, we didn’t find the weapons themselves, but we found the facilities, records of wmd production, paperwork for rushing the wmds out of Iraq into another country-- Syria, I think.
3. If we were after the oil, we’d have gotten every scrap of it a long time ago. In fact, we’ve probably spent more money on the war that we would’ve gotten from the oil in the first place.

Half of our illegal immigration problem is that no-one in Washington actually has a clue what our current policy is, let alone any interest in solving something that’s ripe for political exploitation. Rolling Eyes I’ve been studying this for Debate, and I’ve found contradictory statements from the same gov’t departments issued on the same day, neither of which was released as corrections to the other; they were just issued without any regard to the fact that they just said the exact opposite.My position: Immigration is a wonderful thing. Illegal immigration is not, primarily because we have no control over who gets in-- Juan the honest Mexican who just wants to feed his family, and is sometimes even willing to go back to Mexico once he’s worked enough to support his family, as opposed to bringing them here, or Tariq al-Terrorist, who wanders in from Mexico or Canada. We need to expand legal immigration substantially, especially employment-based immigration, which is currently limited to 5k permanent unskilled and 66k temporary skilled /unskilled people per year... when we need an estimated 400-500k employment-based immigrants just to keep the economy going.


-Torture. I have made a special section for this issue as it has been burning at me ever since Bush’s veto. What is your oppinion on the use of torture? Personally I believe it goes against everything America should be. It’s time America decided quite how far it’s willing to go down a dark path in the name of security and this could be the decisive issue.

The US should not torture. (Heck, no one should.) However rough interrogation.... that’s different. Even very rough interrogation. But somewhere, there’s a fuzzy line between beating the snot out of someone to try to save lives, and torturing someone. Better to use rough interrogation, but not so rough as to approach the line too closely. Waterboarding... I don’t know much about it, but from what I understand, it would be close to the line, but not too close. Of course, then one has to remember that there’s different pain thresholds. One person’s mild beating might be another’s torture, simply because the one can handle much more pain than the other.
A distressingly unclear and difficult point. I expect that there’s no real "brightline" that can be drawn here.

Never kid about politicians. The more bizarre the joke, the more likely it is to come true.
gil-estel
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:45 am
Joined: 25 Apr 2007 Posts: 545 Location: Groningen, the Netherlands
thanks for the honest and wel-funded awnser. Might not agree with you on every point, but well stated it was!
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sickofpalantirs
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:29 pm
Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 7750 Location: somwhere, over the rainbow way up high. There's a land that I heard of once in a lullaby.
torture is the hardest one for Christians I think. I don’t think we should waterboard, or even rough interrogate, but I do think we need ways to make people talk...I’m lost.
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AgentDrake
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:37 pm
Joined: 01 Apr 2007 Posts: 667 Location: Halfway between eccentric and insane...
Truth serum, maybe? But isn’t that stuff supposed to be dangerous, or something?
I suppose if we can’t get them to say anything at all, it’s sorta pointless to give them truth serum, though.
Never kid about politicians. The more bizarre the joke, the more likely it is to come true.
Gate Troll
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:30 pm
Joined: 15 Aug 2006 Posts: 384 Location: Udun Vale, Home of the one and only... Gate Troll!
Turin06 wrote:

"Personally I am quite a centralist. My Christianity compels me towards a socialist desire to help the poor..."


Helping the poor by charity, donating food, money etc... is not socialism.
Socialism is a few people making other people pay higher taxes which
goes toward welfare checks for poor people.
"Wars may be fought with weapons, but they are won by men. It is the spirit of the men who follow and of the man who leads that gains that victory."-George S. Patton.
AgentDrake
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:48 pm
Joined: 01 Apr 2007 Posts: 667 Location: Halfway between eccentric and insane...
Gate Troll wrote:
Turin06 wrote:

"Personally I am quite a centralist. My Christianity compels me towards a socialist desire to help the poor..."


Helping the poor by charity, donating food, money etc... is not socialism.
Socialism is a few people making other people pay higher taxes which
goes toward welfare checks for poor people.


...Government socialism is like that, anyway. Private socialism, on the other hand... you can run other stuff, voluntary stuff -- perhaps a membership-based charity -- on a socialist system without screwing up the overall system. That seems to me to be one of the most effective ways of getting "the best of both worlds."
Never kid about politicians. The more bizarre the joke, the more likely it is to come true.
Turin06
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:41 pm
Joined: 24 Oct 2006 Posts: 197 Location: Good Question
Gate Troll wrote:
Turin06 wrote:

"Personally I am quite a centralist. My Christianity compels me towards a socialist desire to help the poor..."


Helping the poor by charity, donating food, money etc... is not socialism.
Socialism is a few people making other people pay higher taxes which
goes toward welfare checks for poor people.


Only in a totally socialist system. However adding some socialist elements to a capitalist system I think works really well. Surely it is better to make a system which helps create less poor people in the first place is more beneficial for them than charity ever will. By introducing some socialist elements to a country allows for a system which helps those who most need help rather than merely catering to middle and upper classes. But we should probably keep that to the Capitalism vs Socialism topic.
Between the conception
And the creation
Between the emotion
And the response
Falls the Shadow
MR. Lurtzy
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:15 pm
Joined: 30 May 2007 Posts: 423 Location: Living with the Governator
About the torture thing, my dad was in the Special forces for the army and he was his squad’s toruturer. I would say that it is okay to use sometimes. These times may include: if you know someone is hiding info that could put thousands or millions of people in danger, if someone is hiding info on a planned attack to get someone "big" out of jail, or such. You gotta take the lesser of two evils here.

As for the other stuff, John McCain sucks immensely, but he’s better than either The Hills have Eyes, or the Obamanation. Heck, I’d rather not vote if I had to pick one of them. Their policies (specially the war, healthcare, and pushing for socialism) are just to incredibly terrible to even consider voting for. Silenced
'On and on old war shall go,
Without respite my blood will flow
O’er your eyes ‘til they cannot see
The impossibility of victory.'

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