All Individual Card Rulings at TLHH

[MuadDib85]

 

[MuadDib85]

So as I see it WITD is still not usable. Issuing an unofficial errata for this card (without a physical version of it) might be a way forward??

Common sense would be a better way forward.

[Cw0rk]

So as I see it WITD is still not usable. Issuing an unofficial errata for this card (without a physical version of it) might be a way forward??

Common sense would be a better way forward.

Perhaps a clarification would be enough?

[MR. Lurtzy]

So as I see it WITD is still not usable. Issuing an unofficial errata for this card (without a physical version of it) might be a way forward??

Common sense would be a better way forward.

The proper errata, which would make the card finally usable is common sense.

[Tbiesty]

I think I have the "Unofficial Rulebook" (see link in initial post) filled up with all of the existing official rules, etc. Whew!  Finally, everything in one document!

[MuadDib85]

The proper errata, which would make the card finally usable is common sense.

It has been used by many on gccg as is without any issues. Including smallman, tempest, marko & King89. These are among the best players on gccg and I think all of them have common sense to see that WITD needs no change for it to be used.

If it is decided upon to add an extra sentence for the sake of it 'Followers may bear this card', I will not oppose it, I am simply saying that it is not needed.

With the likes of Rapid Reload and GATS, evil men do not need WITD at all, but the card was printed and if people want to include it in decks (as they have done), they should be able too, I think it is pointless whining to say otherwise.

This will be my last post on the subject.

[Tbiesty]

Trying to figure out the right formula here for when a card and a rule conflict.

To do this, let's compare conditions and events.

Condition

The rulebook says:
"A condition is always played during the fellowship phase (if it is a Free Peoples card) or the Shadow phase (if it is a Shadow card), even if it provides a special ability that is performed during a different phase."

But, Some Secret Art of Flame and Dead Marshes let you play other conditions during a different phase.

So with conditions, by default, they must be played during Fellowship or Shadow phase, but cards (either the card itself, or another card) can let you overrule that and play them during a different phase.

Event

The rulebook says:
"You cannot play an event during a phase that does not match its phase action."

But, Diversion and For the Mark say you can play themselves in a different phase.

Would Bilbo, Bearer of Things Burgled allow you to play an event, specifically NFFATROD, during a different phase?
Would Pass of Caradhras allow you to play Caradhras Has Not Forgiven Us, during a different phase?
Would Host of Moria allow you to play Drums in the Deep during a different phase?

[MR. Lurtzy]

"Cards are defaultly played in their appropriate phase. Some cards let you play other cards out of phase, these are exceptions."

[chompers]

Diversion and For the Mark grant permission to play the event out of phase.

Bilbo Bearer of Things Burgled, Pass of Caradhras and Host of Moria all work without changing the rules of the game (playing events out of phase). They don't grant permission to alter the rules of the game. So you can't use these cards to play events out of phase.

WiTD does not grant permission so you can't play it on a follower.

As I see it, that follows the rules of the game.

If you want to allow WiTD then a heap of cards should also break the rules, many of which have been discussed in this thread.

These rulings really should be based on the rules of the game. Common sense says that if you want to use the card it should have errata. But that is not the point of this exercise.

In the whole scheme of things I am not fussed what happens. I would just like to be on the same page as most people using a common ruling document. And I think that there is a solid argument that WiTD should not be used within the existing rules of the game.

[Tbiesty]

Sounds like good reasoning to me.  Thanks!

[Gerontius]

It seems to me that Bilbo and Pass of Caradhras would override the rules. Bilbo gives permission to play a tale during the regroup phase, whatever the tale may be. However, this is a problem as Nffatrod and the like were not designed to be played out of phase.

I think that the best way to deal with the problem would be to slightly alter Decipher's rule: "Events may not be played out of phase unless allowed by the game text of the event." -this would be a rule that couldn't be bent by cards.

So, Diversion works, Bilbo does not.
For the Mark works, Host of Moria + Frenzy does not.

[Tbiesty]

"Events may not be played out of phase unless allowed by the game text of the event."

I think a clarification like that would certainly avoid confusion.

For Free People's and Shadow card types other than events (i.e. companions, minions, possessions, conditions, artifacts, allies, and followers), they are played, by default, during the Fellowship (or Shadow) phase, but cards may allow them to be played during other phases.

So events are slightly different, but as long as the rules would spell it out, it would be clear for everyone.

Thanks!

[Tbiesty]

The rulebook states that "Followers can't bear other cards, including possessions or conditions."

Let me throw this out there:  What if the rule was updated to say "Followers can't bear other cards, except conditions."

It makes sense that followers shouldn't bear companions, minions, possessions, events, artifacts, allies, or other followers.
However, I do see potential from a follower bearing a condition.  Whisper in the Dark is an example of that, which would now definitely be playable.

In fact, at this point, Whisper in the Dark would be the only card that a follower can bear.

[MuadDib85]

In fact, at this point, Whisper in the Dark would be the only card that a follower can bear.

Exactly. Why bother changing WITD at all... It is the ONLY card in the ENTIRE game that says 'bearer must be a follower', this text alone indicates that it defeats the rule 'followers cannot bear other cards'.

Again... common sense.

[Tbiesty]

In fact, at this point, Whisper in the Dark would be the only card that a follower can bear.

Exactly. Why bother changing WITD at all... It is the ONLY card in the ENTIRE game that says 'bearer must be a follower', this text alone indicates that it defeats the rule 'followers cannot bear other cards'.

Again... common sense.

Not exactly what I was trying to say.  However, we definitely agree that it should be playable.

What I'm trying to get at is: If the rule was updated to say "Followers can't bear other cards, except conditions." that would avoid confusion.