Shagrat killed during skirmish

[Tbiesty]

A lot of stuff can go on when a skirmish is being resolved, that is why I think the exact steps need to be clarified.

Even though some stuff has been quoted from the rules.  Still nothing has been been quoted that shows which of the following is the correct interpretation of resolving a skirmish... specifically when the characters are discarded or placed in dead pile.

Interpretation 1:
Skirmish actions.
Skirmish resolved (i.e. winner/loser is determined).
    Response: actions to skirmish resolution.
Mandatory actions (includes wounding the losing character, but not placing them in the dead/discard pile even if vitality=0)
    Response: actions to mandatory actions
Optional actions
    Response: actions to optional actions
Place character that was killed in the dead/discard pile
Skirmish ends

Interpretation 2:
Skirmish actions.
Skirmish resolved (i.e. winner/loser is determined).
    Response: actions to skirmish resolution.
Mandatory actions (includes wounding the losing character, which may cause them to be placed in dead/discard pile)
    Response: actions to mandatory actions
Optional actions
    Response: actions to optional actions
Skirmish ends

[Elessar's Socks]

Situation:
1) Shagrat loses a skirmish to Isildur, Sword-Bearer (who is damage +2).
Mandatory Actions:
2) Shagrat takes 3 wounds, which kills him, so he is placed in the discard pile.
3) The Isidur's text activates, which is used to heal Aragorn.
Optional Actions:
4) Shagrat's text activates, which is used to exert Aragorn.  (Even though he is in the discard pile?)

To answer this question, there are a couple assumptions I make (covered in the draft):

1. Placing default wounds are collectively a required action triggered by losing a skirmish (it's not something that happens immediately, nor is it a step that happens after responses to losing a skirmish are completed). You can respond to each wound (each is placed as an individual action), but other required actions triggered by losing a skirmish have to wait until this "placing default wounds" action is complete.

2. If a card is removed from play before an action on that card is performed (despite it being triggered already), then that action is not performed. The exception to this is if the action is triggered by the card itself leaving leaving play--otherwise Theoden, TaP wouldn't work.

So...

An exhausted Shagrat, CoCU loses a skirmish to Isildur, SB
- Required actions to winning/losing a skirmish: placing wound, using Isildur (FP picks wound)
- Wound is placed on Shagrat (Shagrat is "immediately" killed)
-- Required actions to Shagrat being killed: none
-- Optional actions to Shagrat being killed: none
-- Shagrat is placed in the discard pile
- Isildur's text is performed
- Optional actions to winning/losing a skirmish: none

But seriously, I don't think the rulebook has something definite on points 1 and 2. Change point 1 and the situation alters with YaLaaT / threats. Change point 2 so that the actions are performed anyway, and voila, Shagrat works.

[Elgar]

At the resolution of the skirmish, characters, as appropriate, are placed in the dead pile or discard pile. If threats are triggered, the skirmish phase continues and response actions can take place for each applied threat.

Not true.  If a character's vitality is 0, he is killed immediatly.  This means that characters, as appropriate, can be placed in the dead pile during or before the resolution of the skirmish.

[ket_the_jet]

Not true.  If a character's vitality is 0, he is killed immediatly.  This means that characters, as appropriate, can be placed in the dead pile during or before the resolution of the skirmish.

A character's vitality being reduced to zero is part of the resolution of that skirmish. There is still time for response actions, "each time" actions, and "when" actions.
-wtk

[Cw0rk]

Not true.  If a character's vitality is 0, he is killed immediatly.  This means that characters, as appropriate, can be placed in the dead pile during or before the resolution of the skirmish.

A character's vitality being reduced to zero is part of the resolution of that skirmish. There is still time for response actions, "each time" actions, and "when" actions.
-wtk

+1.

[Tbiesty]

Looks like this has come up before...
http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,755.0.html

As I look back at other discussions about this, the answer, from what I can tell, is actually not complicated.
It comes back to a fundamental rule of the game.  See "action" in the glossary section of the rulebook.
Specifically this sentence:
"All required actions responding to a particular trigger are performed before any optional actions."

So in this situation, after any skirmish actions, we "resolve" the skirmish, which just means to determine the winner and loser by comparing the strength; so at that point the skirmish has been "resolved", but not "ended" yet.  
This act of "resolving" the skirmish is a trigger for other actions to respond to.  And like the rule says, "All required actions responding to a particular trigger are performed before any optional actions."

So here's how it goes:

1) Skirmish resolves (i.e. a winner and loser is declared) (this is a trigger, so any required or optional responses to this happen now)
       required actions (Free Peoples player chooses order of "a" and "b")
     a) Place wound on Shagrat, which kills him (this is another trigger, so any required or optional responses to this happen now)
     b) Isidur's text heals a companion.  (this is another trigger, so any required or optional responses to this happen now)
       optional actions (using the action procedure)
     c) Free Peoples player has no optional action to perform, therefore passes.
     d) Shadow player has no optional action to perform, therefore passes.

"A skirmish phase ends after all actions triggered by winning or losing that skirmish have resolved."

2) The skirmish is "about to" end.  (this is another trigger, so any required or optional responses to this happen now)
3) The skirmish ends.

[mardukra]

Well said, Tbiesty.