Unofficial Rulebook Discussion #10 (Aug 21 - Aug 24) -- Followers and Aid

[Tbiesty]

This discussion and ruling is part of the series of discussions and rulings for an "Unofficial Rulebook" as described here.

This discussion will be open from Aug 21, 2010 - Aug 24, 2010.
The outcome of this discussion and ruling will be added to the "Unofficial Rulebook".

Discussion #10:

Can Followers be transferred from one companion to another companion using Aid?    (previous discussion, previous discussion)

Option 1:
No, because Aid can only be used to transfer a Follower to a companion from the support area.

Option 2:
Yes, because Aid can be used to transfer a Follower to a companion from either the support area or another companion.

[MR. Lurtzy]

Once again, the rules are very specific on this case:

"The follower is borne by the companion for the rest of the turn, no matter how often the fellowship moves."

Option 1.

[Anautikus]

I'm going with option 1 as well.

[MuadDib85]

Once again, the rules are very specific on this case:

"The follower is borne by the companion for the rest of the turn, no matter how often the fellowship moves."

Option 1.

Agreed. Option 1.

[Elessar's Socks]

Option 2, as the rules currently stand. The aid game text, like other game text that transfers followers (e.g. Sam BoGN, No Visitors), can override the rule that says followers are borne by a companion for the rest of the turn.

[MuadDib85]

Option 1. Unless a cards game text gametext says so (Sam, BoGN, No Visitors).

"The follower is borne by the companion for the rest of the turn, no matter how often the fellowship moves."

This must mean something.

[Elessar's Socks]

- Aid text *is* game text.

- The intention of that rule, which is itself debatable, doesn't matter when cards can override the rules.

Personally, I'm on the fence as to whether followers *should* be able to transfer, but that's how I see it from a technical standpoint. And for what it's worth, both Bib and Merrick have allowed it as well, so as yet I don't see a problem with it rules-wise.

[Witchkingx5]

Option 2:

Game Text: Aid - do X. (At the start of the maneuver phase, you may add a burden to transfer this to a companion.)

if you coldn't transfer the follower again, cards like No Visitors (as ES pointed out before correctly) wouldn't work. They do specificaly override the rule, as does any followers gametext.

"The follower is borne by the companion for the rest of the turn, no matter how often the fellowship moves."

No Visitors is one example a clear example which overrides this rule. This rule was intened to say that the followers doesn't get detached at the start of the nxt regroup phase and so on.

[Tbiesty]

Since the current rules do not "absolutely, without a doubt" favor one option versus the other concerning Aid, this is really a "how do you think it should be played" question.

Personally, I am on the fence about this one.  I'd be curious to hear pros/cons of allowing vs. not allowing followers to be transferred between companions.  Any takers?

[mardukra]

#2

[hrcho]

I'm not a big fan of post-movie editions, but from what I've seen, followers are quite powerful as it is (on gccg people play #1) and I think that #2 would be too powerful. What then happens with Saruman, Servant of Sauron? Could he be transferred from minion to minion then?

[MR. Lurtzy]

"The follower is borne by the companion for the rest of the turn, no matter how often the fellowship moves."

Then why would Decipher make this rule, when every follower card breaks it? I think they should be played as intended, which would only allow transferring once.

[Thranduil]

Followers
Follower is a new card type. A follower represents help for your fellowship that joins for a short time and then departs.
Followers are not members of your fellowship. They are not allies or companions. They are not characters, although they are often named and depicted with images of people from the story. Even though a follower may seem as if it were an Elf or Hobbit or Wizard, it can't be spotted as such because a follower doesn't have a race on its card type line. Followers can't bear other cards, including possessions or conditions.
A follower is played to your support area. While your follower is in your support area, it has no effect on the game. Each follower has the keyword "Aid" (see below) which you can use to transfer that follower to one of your companions.
When your follower is borne by a companion, that follower will provide an ongoing effect or a special ability that may then be used. A companion may bear more than one follower. If that companion is killed, all of its followers are discarded, just like other cards borne by that companion.
During the regroup phase, when the Free Peoples player reconciles and minions are discarded, each follower is transferred back to the support area (at no cost). Follower cards have a gold circle in the upper left to remind you to return them to the support area.
In later turns, that follower may again be transferred to a companion (the same one or a different one, your choice) using the above procedure.

Aid
This keyword has the form of "Aid – X," where "X" is the cost to use the aid keyword. You use the aid keyword as a maneuver action. At the start of the maneuver phase, you may pay the aid cost to transfer that follower to your companion. Place it beneath the card, just like a possession or condition borne by that companion. The follower is borne by the companion for the rest of the turn, no matter how often your fellowship moves. You don't have to pay the aid cost again for a follower borne by a companion in a subsequent maneuver phase.

For easy reference, these are all the rules we have for followers. Now it is very significant that at no point in the description of the aid keyword does it specifically say it has to transfer from the support area.

However, the follower section suggests to me that this was always the intention, especially the line I've made bold above.

So, as far as I can see, while technically the rules do not forbid transferring from companion to companion, we are also ruling on intentions here, and the intention seems to me that this should not be the case.

I would suggest a clarification for the aid phrasing in the Unofficial Rulebook: Aid – X (Pay X to transfer this follower from your support area to your non-ally character). (This also applies the same text to Shadow followers).

Thranduil

[MuadDib85]

Unofficial Rulebook: Aid – X (Pay X to transfer this follower from your support area to your non-ally character). (This also applies the same text to Shadow followers).

Thranduil

This is the best thing to do.


EDIT: We Know that Sam, BOGN and No Visitors return followers to the support area with game text... Does any card's game text actually make a companion to companion transfer possible? (Besides the 'aid' gametext lacking the words: 'support area').

[chompers]

I like Thranduil's suggestion. It clears up alot.

One a side not .. does it actually matter if you can transfer from companion to companion? If the fellowship moves more than once, as aid is an at start of maneuver plase action, the cost can only be spent once to change the bearer. Does this impact the game in any way? (I don't play with these cards so an unaware of the finer details of what they do).