Unofficial Rulebook Discussion #14 (Aug 26 - Sept 1) -- Final Triumph

[Tbiesty]

This discussion and ruling is part of the series of discussions and rulings for an "Unofficial Rulebook" as described here.

This discussion will be open from Aug 26, 2010 - Sept 1, 2010.  (Role call for votes will be on Aug 30th and Sept 1st)
The outcome of this discussion and ruling will be added to the "Unofficial Rulebook".

Discussion #14:

How does overwhelming work with Final Triumph or One Last Surprise, when cards that say "cannot be overwhelmed unless strength is tripled", like Coat of Mail are involved? (previous discussion)

Option 1:
Cards that say "cannot be overwhelmed unless strength is tripled" do not have any effect since strength is not being compared at all.

Option 2:
Cards that say "cannot be overwhelmed unless strength is tripled" prevent overwhelming because strength cannot be tripled because strength is not being compared at all.

Option 3:
Cards that say "cannot be overwhelmed unless strength is tripled" really mean "cannot be overwhelmed unless [whatever attribute is being used to resolve the skirmish] is tripled".
         In the case of Final Triumph, it means "cannot be overwhelmed unless companion's vitality is tripled by minion's vitality".
         In the case of One Last Surprise, it means "cannot be overwhelmed unless Gandalf's resistance is tripled by minion's strength".

Option 4:
Cards that say "cannot be overwhelmed unless strength is tripled" really mean "cannot be overwhelmed unless strength is tripled [by whatever attribute is being used to resolve the skirmish]".
         In the case of Final Triumph, it means "cannot be overwhelmed unless companion's strength is tripled by minion's vitality".
         In the case of One Last Surprise, it means "cannot be overwhelmed unless companion's strength is tripled by minion's strength".


We will officially count votes on Aug 30th and Sept 1st.   For people that have voted before Aug 30th, please post whether you are sticking with your original vote or changing your vote.

Votes:

Option 1:  6    (MuadDib, MR. Lurtzy, hrcho, TheJord, Gil-Estel, Tbiesty)

Option 2:  <none>

Option 3:  <none>

Option 4:  4    (Elessar's Socks, Witchkingx5, legolas3333, chompers)


Thanks everyone for participating!

[TheJord]

Strength is not being compared. #1

[Tbiesty]

I am leaning in the direction of Option 1 at this point.  I'll attempt to explain why.

First, this is a definition for what it means to "resolve a skirmish" that I have in the "Unofficial Rulebook" to help keep things clear:

"Resolve a skirmish means to determine a winning side and losing side (and also determine whether the losing side is overwhelmed) by comparing the strength totals of each side."

Final Triumph and One Last Surprise both make it so that the companion's strength is not being used in the comparison.  Therefore, when resolving the skirmish, it is "undetermined" if the companion's "strength is tripled" because you've neither been told to compare the companion's strength to anything, nor told what you would even compare it to.

If you've never been told to calculate something, can you make any conclusion about the results?

A logic example to think about:
1)  Boromir cannot lose a game of LOTR to Lurtz, unless Boromir's height is 2 feet less than Lurtz's height.
2)  Boromir is 6 feet tall.
3)  We don't know how tall Lurtz is, because nobody ever measured him.

Result:  Can we state that Boromir cannot lose a game of LOTR to Lurtz?

[ket_the_jet]

So I really don't care to get into this one since I'll never be playing Standard or Expanded again, but just out of curiosity, why is it that just because you are not using strength to resolve the skirmish, Coat of Mail, Heavy Chain, or Dwarven Armor don't work?

The way I see it, you have:

Boromir, Lord of Gondor strength 7, vitality 2, wearing Armor.
Any , strength 16, vitality 5.

The Uruk Player uses Final Triumph. I still don't think that Boromir is overwhelmed because, regardless if whether or not strength is being used to determine the outcome of the skirmish, his strength (7) is still not being tripled. Even though you are not using strength to determine the outcome of that specific skirmish, it doesn't mean that the charater's strength does not exist.
-wtk

[MR. Lurtzy]

The effect of this card changes the requirements for resolving a skirmish. As a result, none of the cards that previously had an effect on strength during a skirmish have any effect on a skirmish in which this card is played. Only cards or effects that increase or decrease vitality directly would alter the resolution of a skirmish in which this card was played.

[ket_the_jet]

I don't know what you quoted.
-wtk

[MR. Lurtzy]

It's from the rulebooks, regarding final triumph. As well as in the database.

[ket_the_jet]

Okay, well I'm going to remove myself from this discussion then because, like I said, I'm not touching Standard or Expanded for at least seven or eight hours. But I stand corrected in my interpretation.
-wtk

[mardukra]

#3

[Witchkingx5]

Well, this reallly is a harder one (besides WitD) to solve. So, let's explain this card with the follwing rule:

All cards do what they say.

Final Triumph says that vitality is being used to resolve the skirmish. Coat of Mail says that bearer cannot be overwhelmed unless his strength is tripled. Now, Final Triumph first overreads any strength modifiers and similar. No, strength becomes irrelevant for this skirmish, as Final Triumph says that only vitality matters in that skirmish. When Coat of Mail 's ability should affect the skirmish, it does not, as vitality is the only relevant value in that skirmish.

example:

Boromir, LoG with 2 vitality and Armor against Troop of Uruk-Hai. Final Triumph is played.

Lord of Gondor looses the skirmish because of those relevant numbers:

Troop of Uruk-Hai: 4 vitality
Lord of Gondor: 2 vitality

Lord of Gondor gets overwhelmed as his ability doesn't affect the values above.

Option 1.

q.e.d.
w.w.w.w.w.

[Elessar's Socks]

Let's see if I can lay out my thought process. As a ground rule, I'm treating "to resolve that skirmish" to mean (1) determining skirmish winners/losers and (2) determining whether the losers are overwhelmed.

First, the CRD entry for Final Triumph doesn't make much sense to me, unless resolving a skirmish using vitality has its own special rules associated with it. Take the line "Only cards or effects that increase or decrease vitality directly would alter the resolution of a skirmish in which this card was played." If we apply this logic to a skirmish resolution based on strength, the statement changes to "Only cards or effects that increase or decrease strength directly would alter the resolution of a skirmish."

However, The Tale of the Great Ring contradicts that because it does not increase or decrease strength directly, and yet it alters the resolution of a skirmish. So as I see it, either that line in the CRD is too restrictive, or a skirmish resolution using an attribute other than strength is handled in a different manner. I think the former is more likely.

Second, we know from One Last Surprise that different attributes may have to be compared to each other. So, that made me think of a general case for resolving a skirmish, which I'd treat as follows:

• If the total attribute value of one side is more than the total attribute value of the other side (but less than double), the side with the higher value wins that skirmish. (If there is a tie, the Shadow side wins.)
• If the total attribute value of one side in a skirmish phase is at least double the total attribute value of the other side, all the characters on the losing side are overwhelmed and killed.

Applying the above to a situation involving Final Triumph and Coat of Mail, the bearer would not be overwhelmed unless his vitality is doubled by the minion's vitality, and his strength is tripled by the minion's vitality.

[Tbiesty]

First, the CRD entry for Final Triumph doesn't make much sense to me, unless resolving a skirmish using vitality has its own special rules associated with it. Take the line "Only cards or effects that increase or decrease vitality directly would alter the resolution of a skirmish in which this card was played."

However, The Tale of the Great Ring contradicts that because it does not increase or decrease strength directly, and yet it alters the resolution of a skirmish. So as I see it, either that line in the CRD is too restrictive, or a skirmish resolution using an attribute other than strength is handled in a different manner. I think the former is more likely.

I'm quite sure that that line in the CRD is just reiterating that "strength does not affect the resolution, but vitality does".  The Tale of the Great Ring was likely just overlooked when writing that statement. But actually, it doesn't really matter if it was overlooked, because once Final Triumph is played, the overwhelming prevention from The Tale of the Great Ring does not apply anyway.

[ket_the_jet]

The Tale of the Great Ring doesn't matter because Final Triumph is a skirmish event.

But I guess you guys are talking in theory.
-wtk

[Tbiesty]

Okay, well I'm going to remove myself from this discussion then because, like I said, I'm not touching Standard or Expanded again. But I stand corrected in my interpretation.
-wtk

Thank you!  Please honor your word.

[ket_the_jet]

Thank you!  Please honor your word.

Tbiesty,

I appreciate your concern for my character. I have edited my previous post to acquiesce to your interpretation of any care I would have as to how others would perceive my moral values.

I further apologize that my observation, coming a mere 33 seconds after yours (and posted from a mobile phone) would have in any way offended you and kept this conversation from moving forward in a productive manner.

I have attached this drawing of a spider. I value the drawing at $233.95 so trust that this settles the matter.