Unofficial Rulebook Discussion #14 (Aug 26 - Sept 1) -- Final Triumph

[Elessar's Socks]

I'm quite sure that that line in the CRD is just reiterating that "strength does not affect the resolution, but vitality does".  The Tale of the Great Ring was likely just overlooked when writing that statement. But actually, it doesn't really matter if it was overlooked, because once Final Triumph is played, the overwhelming prevention from The Tale of the Great Ring does not apply anyway.

Skirmish resolved using strength - cards that don't increase/decrease strength directly (e.g. TTotGR) can affect the skirmish resolution

Skirmish resolved using vitality - cards that don't increase/decrease vitality directly (e.g. Coat of Mail) *cannot* affect the skirmish resolution

If we're going by the CRD entry, it seems Final Triumph is doing more than resolving a skirmish using vitality. If there was a card that said "Bearer may not be overwhelmed unless his vitality is tripled" then that wouldn't work, either. Personally, I'm in favor of making skirmish resolutions the same regardless of which attribute is being used to resolve that skirmish.

[Tbiesty]

If we're going by the CRD entry, it seems Final Triumph is doing more than resolving a skirmish using vitality. If there was a card that said "Bearer may not be overwhelmed unless his vitality is tripled" then that wouldn't work, either. Personally, I'm in favor of making skirmish resolutions the same regardless of which attribute is being used to resolve that skirmish.

I believe that CRD entry is just stating in a overly complex and overly restricted way: "Don't compare strength like you've always done before! Compare vitality when resolving this skirmish! This is different!"  I believe when the part that says "Only cards or effects that increase or decrease strength directly would alter the resolution of a skirmish." was written, it was oversight of the author, who was likely only thinking about determining the winner/loser, etc. and not about the card The Tale of the Great Ring that deals specifically with overwhelming (which again, would not apply anyway when Final Triumph is played).  Remember this was written around the time of Treachery and Deceit, when many things were not proofread very well.

So if we take that issue with that sentence in the CRD entry as just an oversight, what if there was a possession that said "Bearer may not be overwhelmed unless his vitality is tripled"?

(Imagine a skirmish in which Final Triumph was not played):

What do you compare the bearer's vitality to?
       Nothing is telling you to compare the bearer's vitality to the minion he is skirmishing. When resolving the skirmish, you compare the companion's strength to the minion's strength because the rules tell you to do that in order to determine the winner and loser; you don't compare stats between characters unless something in the game tells you to.  So the text that says "Bearer may not be overwhelmed unless his vitality is tripled" is irrelevant because you never made a comparison of the bearer's vitality to anything.  

1)  I can see how someone would say there's no way to determine if his vitality is tripled because you aren't comparing it to anything.  If you choose that reasoning, then the Option 1 makes sense to you.

2)  I can see how someone would say "because you aren't comparing his vitality to anything", then his vitality is not "tripled", because the "comparison never took place".  If you choose that reasoning, then Option 2 makes sense to you.


Summary:
You can logically support either Option 1 or Option 2 based on whether you think "his vitality is tripled" (or "his strength is tripled") is either Undetermined (Option 1) or False (Option 2) when it was never compared to anything.

Therefore, it comes down to what players think the intent was (or should be) and us just adding a clarification to the "Unofficial Rulebook" to eliminate ambiguity, so everyone has a common rule to play by.

Personally, I'm thinking that the intent of "unless strength is tripled" is that it only applies when you are actually told to compare the strength to something.  Because of that,  Option 1 is my preferred choice.

Thanks!

[mardukra]

I believe the CRD entry is to clarify that strength modifiers played during Final Triumph's skirmish will not then modify the vitality values being used to resolve it.  Sure, the strength values during the skirmish can change up and/or down but remain irrelevant since Final Triumph was played.  But to be clear, each player may still play skirmish events modifying strength but they won't alter the current vitalities being used to resolve that skirmish.

Each skirmish phase has two parts: Perform Skirmish Actions and Resolve That Skirmish.  Resolve That Skirmish includes overwhelming.  

During 'Perform Skirmish Actions' Final Triumph does nothing.  Not until 'Resolve That Skirmish' does it come into effect; changing which value is compared.  The CRD says, "Just because you played +3 Strength during 'Perform Skirmish Actions' doesn't mean you get +3 vitality now during 'Resolve That Skirmish'."  It's not until 'Resolve That Skirmish' that strength is replaced by vitality for comparison.  

If each instance of strength is replaced by vitality under Resolve That Skirmish (as per Final Triumph) then vitality is also used to resolve overwhelming.

It would follow that if an effect prevented an overwhelm due to strength then Final Triumph would change the overwhelm condition to vitality.

Edit:  Now, the case of Footman's Armor.  Since its action of +2 strength does not alter vitality directly it won't alter the resolution of the overwhelm during a skirmish where Final Triumph is played.  If the bearer is being overwhelmed (by vitality) the FP player may opt to use its action as many times as they may for no [observed] effect.

[Tbiesty]

It would follow that if an effect prevented an overwhelm due to strength then Final Triumph would change the overwhelm condition to vitality.

So you are basically claiming that Final Triumph would change the text of Coat of Mail to mean "Bearer may not be overwhelmed unless his vitality is tripled" during the resolution of that skirmish?

[mardukra]

Yes, exactly.

[Witchkingx5]

interesting thought, I didn't consider that before...

[ket_the_jet]

That notion would be incorrect. Imagine using Mysterious Wizard on Gandalf after using the event where you base a skirmish on resistance? Should Mysterious Wizard have altered text then, as well?

I would suggest no.

Hope my interpretation is welcome, Tb.
-wtk

[mardukra]

You're not seeing it yet.  You could make Gandalf's strength 44 during 'Play Skirmish Actions' but once the 'Resolve That Skirmish' step arrives Gandalf's [7?] resistance represents the FP player's side to be compared for winner/loser and overwhelm value.

It would be Gandalf's resistance vs. the shadow's strength to determine winner/loser.  If the shadow's strength is double Gandalf's resistance then he is overwhelmed.  Coat of Mail would make the shadow's strength need to triple his resistance and Footman's Armor would only get cards out of FP hand (if those situations were even possible.)

[MR. Lurtzy]

If we're going by the CRD entry, it seems Final Triumph is doing more than resolving a skirmish using vitality. If there was a card that said "Bearer may not be overwhelmed unless his vitality is tripled" then that wouldn't work, either. Personally, I'm in favor of making skirmish resolutions the same regardless of which attribute is being used to resolve that skirmish.

I believe that CRD entry is just stating in a overly complex and overly restricted way: "Don't compare strength like you've always done before! Compare vitality when resolving this skirmish! This is different!"  I believe when the part that says "Only cards or effects that increase or decrease strength directly would alter the resolution of a skirmish." was written, it was oversight of the author, who was likely only thinking about determining the winner/loser, etc. and not about the card The Tale of the Great Ring that deals specifically with overwhelming (which again, would not apply anyway when Final Triumph is played).  Remember this was written around the time of Treachery and Deceit, when many things were not proofread very well.

While this may be true, it is pure speculation, and therefore, has no place in this discussion. We should be debating purely on what is in the rulebooks, and the rulebooks are quite clear with this matter.

[Tbiesty]

It would follow that if an effect prevented an overwhelm due to strength then Final Triumph would change the overwhelm condition to vitality.

So you are basically claiming that Final Triumph would change the text of Coat of Mail to mean "Bearer may not be overwhelmed unless his vitality is tripled" during the resolution of that skirmish?

Then in the case of One Last Surprise, it would mean the text of Coat of Mail would change to mean "Bearer may not be overwhelmed unless Gandalf's resistance is tripled" during the resolution of that skirmish.

Interesting idea, but I'm not sure I would agree with that.  Do others agree with it?

[Elessar's Socks]

To clarify, my position wouldn't fall under either option 1 or 2. It's saying that when performing "basic" checks (determining who wins, determining whether losers are overwhelmed), to compare the totals of whatever attribute each side is using, but not to disregard anything else that can affect the resolution.

The part about "is tripled" being nonsensical is an interesting way of looking at it. From my perspective there's an implicit "tripled by the value of whatever the other side is using" in there; I mean, a similar assumption is needed just to get Coat of Mail to work in the first place.

And come to think, if that CRD entry is applied to a strength-based resolution, it would also knock out Coat of Mail.

[Tbiesty]

I've updated the initial post to update the rules for this discussion as well as added a 3rd option.  Thanks for everyone's participation on working together to find common ground!

[Tbiesty]

To everyone that wants to participate:

There are 4 options to choose from. (See initial post for details).  We are starting to count votes now.   Even if you've already given an opinion, please confirm what your final vote will be.  Thanks!

[MuadDib85]

Option 1. Strength no longer matters.

Coat of Mail shouldn't work against Final Triumph.


I am confused about One Last Surprise vs Final Triumph though..

[MR. Lurtzy]

Option 1.

The effect of this card changes the requirements for resolving a skirmish. As a result, none of the cards that previously had an effect on strength during a skirmish have any effect on a skirmish in which this card is played. Only cards or effects that increase or decrease vitality directly would alter the resolution of a skirmish in which this card was played.

Rulebooks are very clear on this.