Unofficial Rulebook Discussion #15 (Aug 27 - Sept 1) -- Overwhelming

[Tbiesty]

This discussion and ruling is part of the series of discussions and rulings for an "Unofficial Rulebook" as described here.

This discussion will be open from Aug 27, 2010 - Sept 1, 2010.
The outcome of this discussion and ruling will be added to the "Unofficial Rulebook".

Discussion #15:

This discussion is to clarify the order of steps in resolving a skirmish (i.e. determining the winning/losing sides, and determining if the losing side is overwhelmed) and the actual overwhelming.

Here is the situation, minion's strength is 2, companion's strength is 1. Companion is bearing Footman's Armor, the game text of which is used when the companion is about to be overwhelmed, making the companions strength 3.

Does Footman's Armor change who is wins/loses the skirmish?

Option 1:
No, because the skirmish goes like this:
     1) Perform any "skirmish actions", until both players consecutively pass.
     2) Resolve skirmish
           (Winner: minion; Loser: companion; Loser is going to be overwhelmed: Yes)
     3) Required actions
         a) Overwhelm companion (Response: Footman's Armor is used to make companion's strength 3;
                                                  recalculate if loser is going to be overwhelmed:  No)
         a') Instead of being overwhelmed, companion takes a wound due to losing the skirmish


Option 2:
Yes, because the skirmish goes like this:
     1) Perform any "skirmish actions", until both players consecutively pass.
     2) Resolve skirmish
           (Winner: minion; Loser: companion; Loser is going to be overwhelmed: Yes)
                 (Response: Footman's Armor is used to make companion's strength 3)
                       (Re-resolve skirmish.  Winner: companion; Loser: minion; Loser is going to be overwhelmed: No)

     3) Required actions
         a)  Minion takes a wound due to losing the skirmish.

[hrcho]

The way I see it, if option 1 is the case, then shadow player cannot interfere after Footman's Armor takes effect. For example:

Isildur is wearing Footman's Armor and is about to be overwhelmed by trackers. Footman's Armor takes effect and the skirmish ends. If Shadow player had a hand full of Vengeance or Kill Them Now, too bad for him for not playing it sooner. I don't think that to be the case.

Option 2 as far as I am concerned.

[Tbiesty]

The way I see it, if option 1 is the case, then shadow player cannot interfere after Footman's Armor takes effect. For example:

Isildur is wearing Footman's Armor and is about to be overwhelmed by trackers. Footman's Armor takes effect and the skirmish ends. If Shadow player had a hand full of Vengeance or Kill Them Now, too bad for him for not playing it sooner. I don't think that to be the case.

Option 2 as far as I am concerned.

You can only perform "skirmish actions" (i.e. play skirmish events or use skirmish special abilities) prior to resolving the skirmish. Once both players consecutively pass their "skirmish action", you resolve the skirmish (i.e. compare strength to determine a winner/loser, and determine if the loser is overwhelmed), so at that point it is definitely too late to play any more skirmish events.

[TheJord]

Footman's Armor is a response to the resolution of the skirmish. No further skirmish actions are available at this point. I don't understand why this question is being asked.

[chompers]

Option 1

[MuadDib85]

Footman's Armor is a response to the resolution of the skirmish. No further skirmish actions are available at this point. I don't understand why this question is being asked.

+1

[MR. Lurtzy]

I don't understand why this question is being asked.

[Tbiesty]

I agree that it's Option 1.

I wanted to verify that Footman's Armor, since it increases your companion's strength, that it only takes effects after the skirmish has resolved, and cannot change the fact the your companion lost the skirmish.  However, Footman's Armor explicitly tells you to "recalculate" if the companion is overwhelmed.  I was quite sure this was the way it works, but didn't want to assume everyone else understood that.

What I mean is, technically, Footman's Armor is really a response to the overwhelming action, not a response to the resolve step.  

Here's the example skirmish to make sure order of all steps is understood:
   Companion: Isildur, Sword-bearer (bearing Footman's Armor)     Minion:  Orc Officer
   1) Skirmish begins.
   2) Perform any "skirmish actions", until both players consecutively pass.
         --At this point, it turns out that Isildur's strength is 1, while Orc Officer's strength is 2.
   3) Resolve skirmish
         (Winner: minion; Loser: companion; Loser is going to be overwhelmed: Yes)
   4) Required actions (the order of "a" and "b" is decided by Free Peoples player)
        a) Exert another companion (an enduring Gondor Wraith) with Isildur's game text.
        b) Overwhelm companion since strength is doubled (Response: Use Footman's Armor to make his strength 3;
                                                                                         recalculate if loser is going to be overwhelmed:  No)
        b') Instead of being overwhelmed, companion takes a wound due to losing the skirmish.
    5) Optional actions (using the action procedure)
        a) Free Peoples player passes their action.
        b) Shadow player passes their action.
    6) Skirmish ends.

[hrcho]

Where does it say that overwhelming question comes after skirmish resolves? I looked under skirmish and under overwhelming in the rules and found nothing.

Actually, I think the question comes before the skirmish resolves.

If I am wrong, what about this scenario:

Skirmish resolves... now it is determined if wounds are placed or if a character is overwhelmed. If wounds are placed, place 1 + damage bonus wounds. If Promise Keeping is in play, it won't work. Because skirmish is already resolved and ended. We know that is not the case. So wound placing comes before skirmish is resolved (overwhelming question too).

[hrcho]

Scratch my last post... I've been through the rules some more and proved myself wrong.

Option 1.

[mardukra]

#1

[Witchkingx5]

Whatever, Option 1 is it.

[TheJord]

The only relevant point I can make is that in a situation where a companion bearing Footman's Armor is being hugely overwhelmed, like 9-27, you could continue to use the response action until you weren't being overwhelmed.

[Tbiesty]

The only relevant point I can make is that in a situation where a companion bearing Footman's Armor is being hugely overwhelmed, like 9-27, you could continue to use the response action until you weren't being overwhelmed.

Yep, since that is a Response: you can use it multiple times for the same trigger. So would that mean Fishing Boat can only be used once to try to avoid an overwhelm since it just says "each time"?

[hrcho]

The only relevant point I can make is that in a situation where a companion bearing Footman's Armor is being hugely overwhelmed, like 9-27, you could continue to use the response action until you weren't being overwhelmed.

Yep, since that is a Response: you can use it multiple times for the same trigger. So would that mean Fishing Boat can only be used once to try to avoid an overwhelm since it just says "each time"?

I think it works the same way as Footman's Armor. You have to recheck conditions for overwhelming. If conditions are met, you can use Fishing Boat again (provided you pay the cost).