Offensive Posting

[SomeRandomDude]

This is particularly related to Gate Troll, but I think it would be good to codify the standards of TLHH for all such incidents.

I have repeatedly private messaged Gate Troll warning him that his posts are offensive and asking him to edit them. I actually wrote a really long plea for him to consider what others thought, and it seemed to work for a while, but he's now back into his open flaming, insulting, offensive self in the debates.

This is extremely problematic, and ultimately resulted in getting what could have been a decent thread locked, as well as ticking a large quantity of people off and derailing debate threads into simple squabbles.

My policy for offensive posting has been to edit the offensive part out and leave a note in the post. But it doesn't seem to be working, as it can be edited right back.

I was thinking of adopting a delete-on-sight policy towards this kind of posting, no matter how much of the post is constructive or not. Hopefully, if he starts losing posts he worked hard on because he's been being insulting, this might be an incentive to quit.

However, there's always the nice ban button that the administrator has, and I think it extreme cases, such as GTs, it may be justified.

Also, I think we should codify moderator procedures and post them in the Golden Hall so that people can actually know what will get their posts deleted.

[FM]

I'm all for it. Want me to write something about it, post here and everyone else can complement, or should we let one of the Admins do it, and WE complement it?

[sickofpalantirs]

I say you do it...yeah GT
oh and is hawkeye banned? or did he just change his avvy?

[DáinIronfoot]

Um...have you read this yet?

And Hawkeye just changed his avatar for some odd reason. No Unholy Sword of Ridiculousness or anything involved there.

[TheJord]

Personally, I think NB you have become to involved (emotionally or otherwise) with the whole shenanigans and I think it would be best if you leave the Council of Cobra to F_M for now, until things cool down. Your comment in the Respecting others thoughts thread, I feel, was a bit too personal towards Gate Troll. Regardless of what he has done, we must remain as objective and neutral as possible.

Now lets all get back to a FUN FORUM!

[SomeRandomDude]

I don't think its necessary to be neutral with someone who's clearly a troublemaker. Its not like I'm deleting his posts because I disagree with him, in fact, I'm ashamed to say that I do agree with him quite frequently.

[DáinIronfoot]

I feel that the topic might not have been locked if turin08 hadn't come in, happily lambasted me, and left.

Someone needed to.

I think the topic would have just been locked later, as you were doing a pretty good job of wrecking it.

SOP speaks the truth.

And you spam.

Wow. They condemn me for arguing reasonably and clap turin on the back for attacking me.

Um...if that was reasonable, I would hate to see it when you're being unreasonable.

Statements like these do not endear the moderation team, which we ALL represent, to the rest of the forumers. Quite frankly, it's getting on my nerves MUCH more than any percieved "clear troublemaking" that's going on with Gate Troll, spamming that's going on with Lurtzy, or any other shenanigans (as Jord wisely put it).

I get that you aren't a fan of Lurtzy or GT, Nic, and I DO get most of the reasons why. But right now, I think you're causing more trouble in an attempt to squash theirs. You're too quick to jump on them with full force even when it's not, in my mind, justified to throw the kitchen sink at them. Be the better man, take a deep breath and a step backwards, and remind them of the rules and guidelines for proper forum behavior. Delete posts if necessary, but don't overdo it. And if they do something worthy of administrator action and Kralik and I are too slow to see it, them pop off a PM. But dropping the hammer every time--especially with snide remarks of your own--isn't necessary or appropriate.

Take speeding, as an example. Usually, a normally good, upstanding citizen that is caught speeding will recieve a warning their first offense or two. Once it seems to become a habit, those warnings become tickets, and ones that can increase in fines with each successive ticket. Then points on the license. Eventually, this can lead to a revoked license. Then finally potential jail time. People don't get locked up the first time they're caught speeding. Is it within the bounds of the law for an officer to do so? Yes. But is it right? Is it justifiable? I don't think many people would say "yes" to that. Go through the progressions, starting with simple (and POLITE) warnings, then PMs to Kralik and I so WE can warn them, THEN perhaps post deletion, and only AFTER that becomes a necessary habit should we talk about further steps.

I feel that GT is, at worst, in the warning and MAYBE occasional post deletion stage. I don't think Lurtzy is anywhere close. Both contribute much more to the community than they detract, from Lothlórien to the Chamber of Mazarbul to the Archives of Minas Tirith and even, yes, to the Council of Cobra. Let's try and cut them a LITTLE more slack, eh?

I like you, man, and I trust you. That's why I recommendeded you as a moderator of so many forums in the first place. But with that comes the responsibility not just to delete posts and keep an eye on things, but to do so in a respectful manner, even if no respect is coming back your way. Rise above, don't lower to. Make-a sense-a?

[SomeRandomDude]

Understood. I would disagree, though, because Gate Troll has been repeatedly warned and persists in offensive posting, I would say he is further than the warning stage. But probably the number one reason I'm ticked with him is because I agree with a lot of what he's saying, and he's giving Christianity/creationism/whatever a bad name.

However, I also understand that at this point, I've lost my temper a few times and that coming from me would be bad.

So, I'll leave moderating the Council of Cobra to the other mods for a while and take a break from some of the debates. Sound good?

[FM]

I don't think you should take a break from debates, you're one of the few nice debaters 'round.

[DáinIronfoot]

You don't have to take a break from debating or anything else unless you really feel it's best for you, NB. Believe me, I used to lose my temper all the time in debates, and am ashamed to admit that at one of the earliest forum communities I joined, I became known as a troublemaker even though I was trying to argue with and renounce other troublemakers. I was blind to how it was making things worse more often than it was making things better, and when I finally DID see it, I was so troubled that I had to leave, even though I really liked the place. So I can understand if you need to take a little breakn from debating to get your head clear...I've been there. But you don't have to for my sake or for anyone else's. Nobody knows you like you do, so that decision is yours and yours alone. Cool by me either way.

Like I said in my edit to the post above, rise above, don't lower to. How you do that--and how you handle certain topics--is your call.

Duly noted on GT. Perhaps I just missed the worst stuff of his before it was deleted. I've got my eye on him, trust me. You're not the only one that has warned me he's a potential problem. I DO see him taking some baby steps to smooth things out and behave himself, but I will follow his activity closely, at least in the near future. Don't hesitate to let Kralik and/or I know if he seems to be acting up again, but please try and do so here or via PM rather than escalating things in other boards. That's all I ask.

Best of luck to you, whatever you decide to do. I'm behind you all the way, man.

[Elessar's Socks]

This thread has been gutted, but is left to remind you of the futility of clinging to life and/or struggling against the power of the mods. Be grateful for every breath you take, it may be your last.

~NB

Dunno if this comment in particular was meant as a joke, but this and other similar ones come off as gloating and pompous, which isn't the impression we should be giving. It's really not necessary to talk at length about the power of mods when a simple nod at the rules and guidelines can suffice.

Another case in point is HawkeyeSPF's post in the Dead Pile. If he didn't realize the deletion settings were just recently changed, maybe he thought we were rubbing things in his face after he tried to be accommodating. Not saying I agree with the way he words his objections, but y'know, requesting that member edits be disabled right in his thread sounded a lot like "Can an admin shut him up for me?" I think the heavy-handed moderation is one of the reasons he became disillusioned with this forum, which is a loss for us.

[AgentDrake]

Alright. Fine. I'm getting rather annoyed. I mean, I haven't been on here much recently (real life caught up with me, but that's a long story that I'm not gonna tell), then suddenly I show up again and all heck hath broken loose upon TLHH.

So.
I have devised a solution to the problem. It's not a happy solution, but it's a solution.

My Doomsday Solution to the "Offensive/Disrespect/Debate Problem":
Enforce a "No Debates Rule" for a full month. The benefits?

1. It'll give tempers a time to cool off.

2. It'll get the topics out of peoples' minds, thus delaying any new escalation.

3. It'll send the topics down the page, thus reducing existing escalation b/c the topics will be gone.

4. It'll be after the fallout of the US elections, which should calm down at least a few people's hostilities.




Do I actually expect this to work? No, for four reasons.

1. People will argue anyway.

2. People will get mad at us mods for doing it.

3. People don't like enforced friendliness.

4. Kralik and Dain will never agree to it, and honestly... I probably wouldn't agree with the idea, either.


SO.

More seriously, I figure we could maybe try to request a ceasefire, as it were. Not a "fight nicely request," like my previous announcement of exasperation, but request a complete ceasefire to allow time for things to cool. Unenforced, because we really don't want to be the TLHH Gestapo.
Do I actually expect that one to work? Well, its sorta just ignoring the problem and hoping that everyone else does, too. But whatever.

[TheJord]

I have to say this as it has been on my mind quite a bit, and a few members have mentioned it...

Do we have too many mods?

[FM]

I think we do, yes. Do not get me wrong, I'm not pointing any fingers, I'll step down the moment Kralik and Dain ask me to. Just the general number that bugs me a little right now (ok, has bugged me for a long time, actually).

[sickofpalantirs]

probably. I really shouldn't be a mod, I spam a bit, review a bit, post a few comments on debate threads (don't really debate, though hawkeye said he appreciated my presence.)  
but I think the best way to do it, would be to have the members decide, not debate just decide. IDK how.

and I think maybe we should cool off debates.  There is a difference between discussion and debate, but we seem to be incapable of not crossing the line.
and losing members like hawkeye and sheildmaiden is NOT worth it.
my 2 cents.