Flaw in Star Wars Plot (Episodes 4, 5, and 6 only)

[Kev-La]

If you'll pardon me saying it, that's a rather bland take on life.

I don't find it bland myself, but I don't mind you calling it so.

Doesn't that kind of make this whole argument a moot point under such a view? I mean, I could murder someone and excuse it by saying in my little reality murder is justified?

Reality is perceived differently by each and every being. A shark routinely detects magnetic waves in the water which, for you or I, would simply not register as part of our reality. To follow on from your example, in whose eyes would you be excused for the murder you yourself feel justified in committing?
However, my agnostic view of the nature of good and evil does not render moot any argument per se.

Just, ah, throwing that out there for consideration. After all, the Empire can't be 'evil' or even 'good' if there is no good or evil, it would just exist.

Thanks. I disagree that the Empire can't be perceived as "good" or "evil" without Good or Evil existing outside of human perception. And I agree that it existed (in Star Wars); it certainly existed for the Alliance as they perceived it to be too "evil" a regime to exist...
I guess what I'm saying is that, like beauty, it's all in the eye of the beholder.

[ket_the_jet]

What about the collateral damage (i.e., civilians) who may have been caught in the cross fire at Bespin, Endor (come on man...the Ewoks never had a chance and the Rebels used them), or any innocent bystanders on Hoth (wampas, anyone?)

Like I've said, this is just an observation. Not a morality contest.
-wtk

[ket_the_jet]

Also, everyone should chill out a little bit and enjoy this light-hearted little guy.
-wtk

[Witchkingx5]

Also, everyone should chill out a little bit and enjoy this light-hearted little guy.
-wtk

oooh, how cute, I always wanted a toy like that! 

[ket_the_jet]

Also, everyone should chill out a little bit and enjoy this light-hearted little guy.
-wtk

oooh, how cute, I always wanted a toy like that! 

I love the video caption: The two things I always wanted as a kid...a real dog and a Kenner AT-AT toy.
-wtk

[Elessar's Socks]

What happens if you are passive an accept the rule of the Empire? Are you worse off? Are you enslaved and your rights taken away? Maybe it is just those that oppose them they feel the 'evil' of the Empire?

What evidence exists in Episodes 4-6 that being part of the Empire is actually a bad thing? Without the Rebellion, would there be war if everyone peacefully accepted their rule?

Going down this route, you could argue that even if you are enslaved, it's a necessary sacrifice for order in the galaxy. In the end, an acceptable quality of life and what one can morally stand is up to the individual. So to answer "What evidence exists in Episodes 4-6 that being part of the Empire is actually a bad thing"... that of course depends on your criteria for a "bad thing."

In the narrow time frame of the movies, we see a world blasted apart as a preemptive measure, a clown car-full of Jawas and a pair of moisture farmers executed for who-knows-what, and the man in charge of it all personally encouraging one Rebel to kill his dad in order to become his new right-hand man. While governments do have shameful parts in their histories, I get the impression this is the way the Empire lives and breathes. For me, the evidence is already there.

[ket_the_jet]

In the narrow time frame of the movies, we see a world blasted apart as a preemptive measure,

More accurately, in defense of the greater good...protection for the rest of the galaxy...

...a clown car-full of Jawas and a pair of moisture farmers executed for who-knows-what,

Intergalactic transfer of stolen government property regarding top secret military operations. Seems reasonable.

...and the man in charge of it all personally encouraging one Rebel to kill his dad in order to become his new right-hand man.

It's hard to find good help.
-wtk

[MR. Lurtzy]

In the narrow time frame of the movies, we see a world blasted apart as a preemptive measure,

More accurately, in defense of the greater good...protection for the rest of the galaxy...

I've never seen the empire work for the greater good, if such a thing is even a valid defense.

[Gate Troll]

In the narrow time frame of the movies, we see a world blasted apart as a preemptive measure,

More accurately, in defense of the greater good...protection for the rest of the galaxy...

...a clown car-full of Jawas and a pair of moisture farmers executed for who-knows-what,

Intergalactic transfer of stolen government property regarding top secret military operations. Seems reasonable.

...and the man in charge of it all personally encouraging one Rebel to kill his dad in order to become his new right-hand man.

It's hard to find good help.
-wtk

Are you serious? The idea of the 'greater good' has been a favorite dictatorial excuse for a long while. I believe the Soviets used it to justify murdering a lot of poor S.O.B.'s. By the same coin, the holocaust was also for the 'greater good'. With those excuses anyone can parse and beat around the bush. What does it say in the Declaration of Independence?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

From that point of view, the American point of view the Empire is purely evil and base.

[ket_the_jet]

From that point of view, the American point of view the Empire is purely evil and base.

A) Faulty logic using the American point of view as a basis for morality.
B) Star Wars took place a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away. They hadn't yet evolved into the American way.

Of course, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to find examples of Americans killing millions with super weapons (Atomic Bombs), killing "clown-cars" of people stealing government intelligence (just about any political killing), or even top "dawgs" killing minions to replace with other minions (again, there are several).

It's all in the eye of the beholder.
-wtk

[ket_the_jet]

It is worth noting that the two atomic bombs killed less than .3% of Japan's population at the time.

Now consider Alderaan. What percentage of the Empire's universe do you think Alderaan's population held? Well, probably at most just about .3%.

Edit: I'm not excusing Hiroshima or Nagasaki. But a lot of historians believe that the atomic bombs prevented far worse bloodshed. Maybe knocking out Alderaan also prevented far worse bloodshed.
-wtk

[Elessar's Socks]

More accurately, in defense of the greater good...protection for the rest of the galaxy...

Or it might backfire by causing more worlds to rebel. Maybe soon the Death Star will be blowing away a planet every other week, and half of the rest will wind up dead.

Intergalactic transfer of stolen government property regarding top secret military operations. Seems reasonable.

Those clowns and farmers never knew what the droid contained...

[Pepi]

Maybe. We'll never know thx to the empire. But u can't destroy millions of lives preventively. It's wrong...

[ket_the_jet]

But u can't destroy millions of lives preventively. It's wrong...

But it happens. Regularly. Nearly every government has engaged in some...callous behavior and some more than others. But it happens and it's there. It just so happened that someone filmed the Empire's destruction of Alderaan and put it in a Michael Moore documentary called "Star Wars."
-wtk

[Witchkingx5]

But u can't destroy millions of lives preventively. It's wrong...

But it happens. Regularly. Nearly every government has engaged in some...callous behavior and some more than others. But it happens and it's there. It just so happened that someone filmed the Empire's destruction of Alderaan and put it in a Michael Moore documentary called "Star Wars."
-wtk

Still, just if something happens doesn't mean it's good. People get killed regularly too, all over the world, but it's stiill bad an should end.