Shagrat killed during skirmish

[Tbiesty]

You guys are dumbasses. Where is Sam when you need him?

Skirmish actions.
Skirmish resolved.
Response actions to skirmish resolution.
"Each time" actions resolved.
Characters discarded or placed in dead pile, if applicable.
-wtk

That was very rude.  Please respect your fellow players.

By all means, if someone would point out in the rulebook where it says that is the order of these things when resolving a skirmish, I'd say there is no doubt.  However, nobody has done that yet.

Can someone please explain, from the rules, where my example situation is going wrong?

Situation:
1) Shagrat loses a skirmish to Isildur, Sword-Bearer (who is damage +2).
Mandatory Actions:
2) Shagrat takes 3 wounds, which kills him, so he is placed in the discard pile.
3) The Isidur's text activates, which is used to heal Aragorn.
Optional Actions:
4) Shagrat's text activates, which is used to exert Aragorn.  (Even though he is in the discard pile?)

[TheJord]

Wounds are always placed after skirmishes are resolved and all actions responding to the loss or winning of a skirmish take place.

With your undersanding Tbiesty, Theoden, TaP would never work.

[Tbiesty]

Wounds are always placed after skirmishes are resolved and all actions responding to the loss or winning of a skirmish take place.

If that's the way it is, that's fine, I'd just like to see where in the rules it says that to back that claim up.

With your undersanding Tbiesty, Theoden, TaP would never work.

In the case of Theoden, Tap, the trigger is him being killed.
So with him, if he is killed, it depends when exactly he is put in the dead pile.  Would it go like this?
Mandatory actions:
1) Place him in the dead pile.
2) Any threats are placed as wounds.
Optional actions:
3) Play a companion with his text.

So either his text is "still active" when he is in the dead pile responding to his own death (kind of like how Gollum, Plotting Deceiver still has active text when he is in the discard pile), or he doesn't work according to the rules.  A simple card clarification would clear that up for me.

[TheJord]

Mandatory actions of losing a skirmish does not include placing someone in the dead pile. Reducing vitality to 0 requires someone being put in the dead pile. Even then, the responses to losing the skirmish would happen before the placing in the dead pile.

[Tbiesty]

Mandatory actions of losing a skirmish does not include placing someone in the dead pile. Reducing vitality to 0 requires someone being put in the dead pile. Even then, the responses to losing the skirmish would happen before the placing in the dead pile.

I know what you are saying, and I'll believe you if you can please show me where in the rules it says that.

[Cw0rk]

Why is it so complicated? The "Each time Shagrat loses a skirmish" triggers before he is placed in the discard pile.

[hrcho]

But the real question is why are you using Shagrat?!
-wtk

I have found Shagrat very good in combination with roaming orcs and Rank and File. More then once I had him fierce, dmg +2 and bearing an uruk axe with possible strength bonus from Rank and File.

[chompers]

Mandatory actions of losing a skirmish does not include placing someone in the dead pile. Reducing vitality to 0 requires someone being put in the dead pile. Even then, the responses to losing the skirmish would happen before the placing in the dead pile.

This makes sense but where in the rules is it ??

Broken record time ... Star Trek CCG needed an entry added to the CRD (by the PC) to make dilemmas work the way Decipher intended. It makes sense that LOTR has the same. Lucky for us it would not need to be as big ....

*attempting missions – Below is the timing for mission attempts and response actions involving them.
1. Active player (AP) begins a mission attempt
a. AP announces where and by what means (normal or game text), showing required personnel, and announcing the difference between the number of personnel involved in the attempt and the number of dilemmas underneath the mission.
b. "When . . . begins a mission attempt" triggers process.
2. Draw Dilemmas
a. "When . . . about to draw dilemmas" triggers process.
b. Opponent (OP) draws dilemmas from his or her dilemma pile equal to the number announced (plus or minus any modifiers, minimum 0).
c. "When . . . drawn dilemmas" triggers process.
d. OP selects any number (0 or more) of dilemmas from those drawn, uses them to form the dilemma stack, and places the rest face up on the bottom of the dilemma pile.
e. "When . . . (choose/chosen) dilemmas" triggers process.
3. Facing Dilemmas
a. If there are no personnel still involved in the mission attempt, all remaining dilemmas in the dilemma stack are overcome.
b. "When . . . dilemma . . . about to (be) reveal(ed)" triggers process.
c. OP reveals the top card of the dilemma stack to AP.
d. "When . . . reveal" triggers process.
e. Cost-related response actions and cost-modifying dilemma gametext process.
f. Check dilemma for duplication, type, and cost. If it fails any of these, it is overcome. Otherwise, the dilemma's cost is deducted from the total allowed.
g. "When . . . about to face . . . dilemma" triggers process.
h. "(When/While) . . . (face/facing) . . . dilemma" triggers and "(When/While) . . . is attempting a mission" triggers process and may be used at any time until dilemma is overcome or placed somewhere.
i. Process the dilemma's non-cost-related gametext, one action at a time.
4. Overcoming Dilemmas
a. After all of a dilemma is processed, if the AP has not been instructed to place it somewhere, it is overcome.
b. Repeat the process beginning at "Facing Dilemmas".
5. Once the dilemma stack is empty and no response actions adding dilemmas are used, it is time to complete the mission with the remaining unstopped personnel.
a. "(When/While) . . . is attempting a mission" triggers process and may be used until the end of the mission attempt.
b. "(When/While) . . . checking . . . mission requirements" triggers process and may be used until the end of the mission attempt.
c. AP shows all requirements needed to complete the mission. If he or she cannot, all of the personnel involved are stopped and all "When . . . fail a mission attempt" triggers and "When . . . mission attempt fails" triggers process.
d. If the AP does show all requirements, all "When . . . about to complete" triggers process, then the AP scores the points on the mission (or points in game text used to attempt and complete the mission, then "When . . . complete" triggers process. If the mission requirements change at any point during part 5, return to the beginning of part 5.

Of course .... I am sure many of you disagree with me ... and I may be wrong .... but it makes sense to me to write a flow chart for each of of the phases (as per Ket's post) so they are transparent and easy to see.

The question is ... do we actually know the correct timing for all these actions?

[MuadDib85]

See there are one group of people who like things to go smoothly and can use common sense without needing everything written on paper and another group of people of who like to nitpick at minuscule things to cause complications..

And comparing LOTR to Star Treck or whatever else that garbage is in the last post, helps how?

This thread has gone for two pages (no thanks to me either) when ket-the-jet had the answer right with the first response post.

[MR. Lurtzy]

Not that I disagree with you here, but "common sense", as it pertains to lord of the rings is merely opinion.

[chompers]

See there are one group of people who like things to go smoothly and can use common sense without needing everything written on paper and another group of people of who like to nitpick at minuscule things to cause complications..

And comparing LOTR to Star Treck or whatever else that garbage is in the last post, helps how?

This thread has gone for two pages (no thanks to me either) when ket-the-jet had the answer right with the first response post.

The nonsense post about Star Trek illustrates the complex nature of CCGs and how writing a rules document that makes sense is no easy feat. It is also a step by step list to resolve the actions in part of the game (like a skirmish). It perhaps shows that writing an accurate CRD may be attempting to bite of more than we can chew. It of course does not need to be complex, nor does it need to be accurate .. as you have pointed out. Accuracy can be over ruled by simplicity ... which is great at leading to all the rules problems that keep cropping up.

ket's response makes sense, I agree with it, but the rules do not appear to support it ... Putting all of the timing related effects in a simple flow chart may overcome some issues.

Whole scheme of things .. i don't particularly care which way this goes ... but i feel entitled to express an opinion .. be it right or wrong. I would like to be on the same page as everyone playing the game ... rather than hoping that each of us are using the same 'common sense'.

BTW ........ If ket's response is right .. why hasn't he supported it .... and why does he feel the need to be abusive? Abuse is what you do when frustrated that you can't prove your point.

[ket_the_jet]

Situation:
1) Shagrat loses a skirmish to Isildur, Sword-Bearer (who is damage +2).
Mandatory Actions:
2) Shagrat takes 3 wounds, which kills him, so he is placed in the discard pile.
3) The Isidur's text activates, which is used to heal Aragorn.
Optional Actions:
4) Shagrat's text activates, which is used to exert Aragorn.  (Even though he is in the discard pile?)

*Sigh*

Here's how this would actually play out.

A, presumably, strength 14+, damage +2 Isildur, Sword-bearer skirmishes Shagrat, Captain of Cirith Ungol. The skirmish is resolved in this order.

Isildur has a higher strength. Time to resolve the skirmish.
The free people's player can play any response action to Isildur winning the skirmish.
The Shadow player can play any response action to Isildur winning the skirmish.
The first wound is placed.
The free people's player can play any response action to the first wound being placed.
The Shadow player can play any response action to the first wound being placed.
The second wound is placed.
The free people's player can play any response action to the second wound being placed.
The Shadow player can play any response action to the second wound being placed.
The third wound is placed.
The free people's player can play any response action to the third wound being placed.
The Shadow player can play any response action to the third wound being placed.
Any free people's player's "Each time" actions take place.
The free peoples player can play any response action to the "Each time" action.
The Shadow player can play any response action to the "Each time" action.
The Shadow player can use any "Each time" action.
The free people's player can play any response action to the "Each time" action.
The Shadow player can play any response to the "Each time" action.

At the resolution of the skirmish, characters, as appropriate, are placed in the dead pile or discard pile. If threats are triggered, the skirmish phase continues and response actions can take place for each applied threat.

BTW ........ If ket's response is right .. why hasn't he supported it .... and why does he feel the need to be abusive? Abuse is what you do when frustrated that you can't prove your point.

You guys are dumbasses. Where is Sam when you need him?

Skirmish actions.
Skirmish resolved.
Response actions to skirmish resolution.
"Each time" actions resolved.
Characters discarded or placed in dead pile, if applicable.
-wtk

Beyond the inaccuracy of your feeling of abuse's role in problem solving, I did go into detail. Frankly, I didn't intend abuse. I was just making an observation.
-wtk

[Witchkingx5]

Abuse is what you do when frustrated that you can't prove your point.

Or if noone wants to accept it even if it's right...

[ket_the_jet]

A skirmish phase ends after all actions triggered by winning or losing that skirmish have resolved.

each time
This phrase you'll see in game text governs the timing of an action, just like the names of phases that are in phase actions. "Each time" is used if an effect can happen more than once. Each such effect has a trigger describing what makes it happen. The trigger is always described first, and followed by a comma.
"Each time you play a possession or artifact on your companion, draw a card." If you play one possession, this game text activates once; if you play a second possession, it activates again, and so on.

response
A special ability or event labeled with the word "Response:" indicates that you may perform that action whenever the trigger described in its game text happens.
You may respond more than once to the same situation. A response action is not a phase action (because there is no "response phase"). Some responses are performed when a described situation is "about to" happen. Typically, only one such response can be performed in a given situation, because its effect will "prevent" that situation or replace it with another effect "instead."

skirmish phase(S) When the assignment phase is complete, each
defending character will fight in a separate skirmish phase. In an order decided by the Free Peoples player, skirmishes are resolved one at a time by conducting a skirmish phase for each. During each skirmish phase, players may perform skirmish actions (special abilities on cards in play with "Skirmish:" and events with that keyword) using the action procedure. Each skirmish action lasts only for a single skirmish. When all players consecutively pass, proceed to resolve that skirmish. If the total strength of one side is more than the strength of the other side (but less than double), the side with the most strength wins that skirmish. (If there is a tie, the Shadow side wins.)
Place one wound on each character on the losing side. (See damage bonus, killed, overwhelmed.) If Aragorn, with strength of 8, faces two Orcs, each with strength of 3 (total strength of 6), then Aragorn wins that skirmish and each losing Orc takes one wound.
If all characters of one side are removed during a skirmish before strength has been totaled, the skirmish resolves and the other side wins. If all characters of one side are removed from
a skirmish before that skirmish begins, that skirmish does not occur. A character is "skirmishing" or in a skirmish "involving" that character only while the skirmish phase that character is assigned to is happening.
Sméagol, Slippery Sneak ("Skirmish: Add threats equal to the total vitality of minions Sméagol is skirmishing to discard Sméagol.") and Frodo are each assigned to different skirmishes. The Free Peoples player chooses to resolve Frodo's skirmish first. He cannot use Sméagol's ability during Frodo's skirmish.
A losing character is any character on the losing side in a skirmish when it resolves. Also, any character removed during his or her skirmish is a losing character, even if that character's side eventually wins. That character is not wounded (or overwhelmed) when the skirmish resolves. Boromir, bearing a Blade of Gondor ("Skirmish: Exert Boromir to wound an Orc or Uruk-hai he is skirmishing."), faces two Uruk-hai who each have only 1 vitality remaining. Boromir exerts once to use the Blade and kill one of the Uruk-hai. That Uruk-hai is a losing character. If the surviving Uruk-hai goes on to win the skirmish, Boromir will be a losing character, and that second Uruk-hai will be a winning character.
If a skirmish is canceled, it ends immediately with no winner or loser. When a skirmish resolves (or is canceled) for any reason, no more skirmish actions may be taken. A skirmish phase ends after all actions triggered by winning or losing that skirmish have resolved. At this point, characters who were involved in that skirmish are no longer assigned.
A surviving minion or companion may skirmish again this turn if the fellowship makes another move (or if the minion has the keyword fierce). Once a skirmish phase has finished, the Free Peoples player must select another defending companion (one who is still assigned to a minion), and perform another skirmish phase. When all skirmishes (both normal and fierce) have been resolved, proceed to the regroup phase. See also enduring, lurker.

Is that enough evidence?
-wtk

[chompers]

Good point ... no more skirmish actions may be taken pretty much sums it up ... didn't quite register with me as i read it. Look at all the text it is hidden in ... thanks for pointing it out.